Article -- Physicians Urge Government to Let Parents Make Vaccine Decisions

Wayne

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Vaccinations have been in the news a lot lately, and I've been dismayed by the almost exclusive one-sided pro-vaccination argument(s), which all too often involves denigrating those who think mandatory vaccinations are governmental overreach. So I was pleased to run across the following article which I feel provides some much needed balance. Since so many PR members had their ME/CFS start after a vaccination(s), I thought I'd post a link to the following article.

PHYSICIANS URGE GOVERNMENT TO LET PARENTS MAKE VACCINE DECISIONS
Says they 'are necessarily risky, as recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court and by Congress'


Here's the introduction to the article:

A prominent physicians’ organization that strongly opposes mandated vaccines is urging the federal government to let parents make medical decisions for their children.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons’ letter to the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee as well as the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions comes amid a new attack on opponents of mandatory vaccination because of minor outbreaks of measles.

AAPS Executive Director Dr. Jane Orient argues regulation of medical practice is a state rather than federal function.

“After being fully informed of the risks and benefits of a medical procedure, patients have the right to reject or accept that procedure,” she said. “The regulation of medical practice is a state function, not a federal one.......
 

Lisa108

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The onset of my illness may well coincide with a bunch of vaccines that were mandatory for me b/c of working in a hospital. I don't know if there was causation, though.

I disagree that vaccination should be something that parents can opt out. It is not a decision you make for your child alone. To not vaccinate your child can put other people at risk.

If people were to be allowed to reject vaccinations, than they'd have to accept certain consequences:
- Not being allowed to attend any public event or to access any public place.
- Being held accountable when harm is done to others.

Opting out will decrease the "herd immunity". It will be people like me who will suffer from this.

In the end it is simple maths: Which risk is higher- your personal one or the collective one for the society you are living in?

If this discussion were about texting while driving: Would you allow people to text while driving after "they were fully informed of the risks and benefits"?

Edit: spelling mistake
 

andyguitar

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Ooh a very controversial subject. What bothers me is that although there must be way of determining if a patient was likley to have an adverse reaction to vaccine there does not appear to be any research into it. If it was possible to say who might suffer a bad effect then all that would be needed was for them not to have the jab whilst all others do.
 

Lisa108

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Very good point, @andyguitar.

I very much hope that in a near future someone will develop a Star Treck-like tricorder (medical scanner) so that the current state of one's immunesystem (and everything else) could be determined on spot.

I do have some additional thoughts to my post above.

Since so many PR members had their ME/CFS start after a vaccination(s)
And many more had a nasty infection like EBV...

So I think what can be safely assumed is that a TRIGGER (not a cause) for the onset of ME/CFS is something that messes up our immunesystem. BUT there must also be a certain prerequisite, a predisposition, that this leads to the development of ME/CFS.

I don't think that we can safely say: it's better to not vaccinate children because it can could trigger xyz.
Not vaccinating will increase the spread of infectious diseases. So those with the predisposition for ME/CFS etc. can be triggered by that instead.

Edit: replaced crossed out word.
 
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Hip

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The tragedy with the vaccination program is not the occasional adverse effects that vaccines may trigger (Dr Chia estimated that around 1.5% of ME/CFS cases may be triggered by vaccination), but the fact that vaccines are not yet available for a lot of very important common viruses like coxsackievirus B and Epstein-Barr virus which are linked to various nasty chronic diseases.

Had we been vaccinated against EBV and CVB, it's likely that most of us here would not have ever developed ME/CFS.

But the general public and most scientific researchers alike to do not put much credence in the very real possibility (I would say probability) that the majority of chronic diseases are caused by common pathogens in circulation.

In the case of CVB and related enteroviruses, these are not only linked to ME/CFS, but are associated with a wide range of diseases:

Chronic diseases Linked to Coxsackievirus B / Enterovirus:
Type 1 diabetes
Chronic myocarditis
Dilated cardiomyopathy
Sudden death by heart attack (enterovirus infection of the heart may cause myocardial infarction)
Myalgic encephalomyelitis (chronic fatigue syndrome)
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (a motor neuron disease)
Parkinson's disease
Primary Sjögren's syndrome
Ileocecal Crohn's disease
Valvular heart disease
Peripheral arterial disease
Functional dyspepsia and chronic gastritis

References for the above give in this article.

So a vaccine for CVB would likely protect an individual from this large group of common and nasty chronic diseases.



So one consideration is about having the choice of declining a vaccination when you don't want one; but I think much more important is the issue of wanting a disease-preventing vaccination when one is not available. We need to ensure that vaccinations are developed to protect against the full range of viruses and other pathogens that are linked to nasty chronic diseases.
 
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Hip

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What bothers me is that although there must be way of determining if a patient was likley to have an adverse reaction to vaccine there does not appear to be any research into it. If it was possible to say who might suffer a bad effect then all that would be needed was for them not to have the jab whilst all others do.
It is a great mystery why vaccines occasionally cause adverse affects, such as triggering ME/CFS. I've always wondered what might explain it. Recently on this forum I came across this case of vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, where the individual already appeared to have some initial tiredness and was generally not feeling right after a presumed Epstein-Barr virus infection.

But as soon as he got a hepatitis vaccination, he was hit will full-blown ME/CFS within 3 days. That makes me wonder if its a combination of vax + virus that triggers the ME/CFS.

In other words, if you happen to be given a vaccination when you have an ongoing acute infection with an ME/CFS-linked virus like EBV, that might combination of factors might trigger ME/CFS. You may not necessarily know that you have an acute infection with such viruses, as in some people viruses cause no symptoms when caught.
 
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Moof

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As someone who grew up in the era before the MMR vaccine and had two classmates out of 28 go profoundly deaf from measles encephalitis and one child from a year-group of 57 die, I just thank God that in the UK parental consent isn't always required for children to be vaccinated. If their parents won't consent but they are considered Gillick competent themselves, they can give consent from quite a young age.

My mother's generation was worse affected, as they didn't even have access to diphtheria vaccination – one of her classmates died from that, another from measles.

I'd advise anyone who worries about vaccination to research family history before they make their decision. It won't take you long to find families that had to bury three or four children – and sometimes one of the parents, too, leaving the rest destitute – in the space of three weeks. The idea that people are deliberately and knowingly exposing their own children to diseases like this makes me want to see them prosecuted for abuse.

Some people just don't seem to know how lucky they are to be able to see all their children grow up. That's what vaccines cause: adults.
 

percyval577

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... wonder if its a combination of vax + virus that triggers the ME/CFS.
Not my case, when I had reasonibly two infections: borrelia and EBV, both of which can be related to an essential important stuff for the body: manganese or arginine, respetively. There are two pathways known to require these ones: Arginase (most important to avoid hyperammonia!) and iNOS in macrophages and microglia.

In other words, if you happen to be given a vaccination when you have an ongoing acute infection with an ME/CFS-linked virus like EBV, that might combination of factors might trigger ME/CFS. You may not necessarily know that you have an acute infection with such viruses, and in some people viruses cause no symptoms when caught.
I have read somewhere that the problem with vaccinations might be (in first order) the solution wherein the dead pathogen stuff comes with, maybe especially aluminium. In my opinion aluminiun might have an important task which has not already been discovered. So this might be an important point because there might be so little tasks of aluminium and it might be pretty easy to get disturbed.
I have googled aluminium would be high in the spinal cord. Then also in the spinal cord there may be develope chronic pain from microglia, cf Kazuhide Inoue 2017, a review om Purinergic Signaling; cf also (a bit speculative) the cci discussion here on the webside.
 
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Lisa108

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maybe especially aluminium
Many of the vaccines (especially those for children) do not contain aluminium.

Foods and water can contain aluminium naturally or as additives.

Many people (private individuals, but also take-aways, catering, "meals on wheels") use aluminium foil or -dishes or -pots to store/prepare food and do not know that salt and acids (naturally occurring in these foods or used as spices/marinades) can dissolve aluminium ions.

Espresso cans may be made of aluminium.
Bakery products which are made with alkaline solutions (pretzel breadsticks, pretzel rolls): the alkaline solutions react to aluminium baking trays.

...

My point here is that if aluminium is a problem factor in developing ME/CFS, the amount of aluminium in vaccines is merely a tip of the iceberg.

Edit: crossed out word and specified content instead
 
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percyval577

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Very good point, @andyguitar.So I think what can be safely assumed is that a TRIGGER (not a cause) for the onset of ME/CFS is something that messes up our immunesystem. BUT there must also be a certain prerequisite, a predisposition, that this leads to the development of ME/CFS.
I think it could be two components only (aside gentical predisposition which probably takes place), and maybe if these were to take place seperatly (which was but in my case indeed the case) they might not have prevailed? Then the vaccines could get made seperated from other influneces, if known.
I don't think that we can safely say: it's better to not vaccinate children because it can could trigger xyz.
Not vaccinating will increase the spread of infectious diseases. So those with the predisposition for ME/CFS etc. can be triggered by that instead.
I asked myself, was in early tims mecfs more often to take place when there hadn´t been any vaccines possible?
This is difficult to say, but I have read some Plato texts: In the Phaidros dialogue it´s about the flying soul - especially what we apparently do not have. Also there is writitten: "feeling like a crusatacean", especially what I could/still can relate to. In this interpretation it might have been important enough to be of importance for a now classical (and important!) author.
 
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pogoman

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Ooh a very controversial subject. What bothers me is that although there must be way of determining if a patient was likley to have an adverse reaction to vaccine there does not appear to be any research into it. If it was possible to say who might suffer a bad effect then all that would be needed was for them not to have the jab whilst all others do.
Of course if there's an new out allowed good chance it will be abused to where herd immunity fails to reach the needed numbers.
As bad as whatever I have is and the possibility of it being vaccine triggered, the diseases prevented by vaccines are far worse.
 

percyval577

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You might be right, @Lisa108, but I also said:
I have read somewhere that the problem with vaccinations might be (in first order) ...
indicating that aluminium itself might not be the problem. Instead it might be a two hit event.

Chocolate contains quite some aluminum. I now experience chocolate at lesser amounts (9-36g) as helpful, whereas higher amounts appear to be detrimental. Chocolate contains also the "strange" metals nickel and chromium, as well as the more normal metals zinc and copper.
I am rn quite senstivie to influences, good and bad ones. And here I happend - because of stupidity - to mistread seperate and almost homeopathic aluminium intake from dishes!! I mixed the soltions up, sadly, it was so nice!
Anyone believing me? (I figured out the reverse of my initial bad influence)?
 

percyval577

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@Lisa108, true, I firstly understood the criticism on vaccines I referred to as a possible criticism on aluminium - but it´s (probably) mainly meant as a single and therefore acute danger. I don´t agree with that (bc quite a lot of normal things would be dangerous, strangly enough).
Instead I would like to look at vaccines as a possible danger, eg, if they conatain aluminium - as I have read - they might be possibly dangerous, and maybe especially in conjunction with hepaititsB stuff (referring to Hip).
And then the question is: Why?
From out a common argument "aluminum is bad" you never get there.

I am also open to any investigstions which would show that aluminium is not the problem, in all these vaccines that had been or are done. But I still would think that aluminum could be easily a problem, eg in Gulf War Illness when the soldiers might have used aluminum dishes (?) and then had contact with other chemicals.
I personally am rather not too afraid of aluminium, and/instead aluminium is found also high not only in the spinal cord!
 

Hip

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Many of the vaccines (especially those for children) do not contain aluminium.
I think most vaccines contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant. Without that adjuvant, which stimulates the immune response, a vaccine will not "take". That is to say, the immune response will be too weak to create antibodies to the pathogen contained in the vaccine, which then defeats the object of vaccination.



Foods and water can contain aluminium naturally or as additives.
That's certainly true. Around 24 mg of aluminum is eaten in food daily in the US. 1 Around 0.2% of orally ingested aluminum is absorbed in the body and bloodstream, 1 so that means your body absorbs around 50 mcg of aluminum each day from your diet, or about 350 mcg a week.

A single vaccine will contain anywhere from 100 to 900 mcg of aluminum. 1

And just one 600 mg aluminum hydroxide antacid tablet contains 208 mg of aluminum, 1 so when you have one of these antacid tablets, you are getting a dose of around 400 mcg of aluminum into your bloodstream.

So on first analysis, it looks like the aluminum in a vaccine would not be a concern. However, it is known that the aluminum hydroxide vaccine adjuvant when injected into muscles can trigger a disease called macrophagic myofasciitis, which has very similar symptoms to ME/CFS, but would appear to be a distinct disease.

So clearly there is something different about injecting aluminum hydroxide compared to the aluminum absorbed into the bloodstream via diet or antacid tablets. We don't hear of any cases of macrophagic myofasciitis appearing following antacid administration.

One difference between dietary aluminum and aluminum from vaccine injections is that the latter form aluminum microparticles, which stimulate strong immune responses. So these microparticles might explain why vaccine adjuvant may trigger adverse effects or diseases such as macrophagic myofasciitis, whereas dietary aluminum does not.
 

Lisa108

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I think most vaccines contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant. Without that adjuvant, which stimulates the immune response, a vaccine will not "take". That is to say, the immune response will be too weak to create antibodies to the pathogen contained in the vaccine, which then defeats the object of vaccination.
While aluminium is added to enhance the impact of inactivated vaccines (diphteria, tetanus for example), it is not part of the attenuated live vaccines (Masern, Mumps, Röteln, Windpocken - measles, mumps, rubella, varicella), at least not in Germany.
(source: Paul Ehrlich Institut)


However, it is known that the aluminum hydroxide vaccine adjuvant when injected into muscles can trigger a disease called macrophagic myofasciitis,
The same source says that there is a causal connection between vaccines and MMF, but only if MMF is defined as a local inflammation (granuloma, cysts).

macrophagic myofasciitis, which has very similar symptoms to ME/CFS
MMF does NOT include symptoms like myalgia, chronic fatigue, cognitive dysfunction. This is (according to the Institute) a view voiced by some authors, not a general shared view.

A study they cite however found a certain risk allel for MMF. (HLA-DRB1*01)

_______

So I think what this shows is that much more research is needed into this topic, because many contradicting opinions are out there.

This brings me back to @Wayne 's original post: How can parents make an informed decision when the information is incomplete/contradictory?
Is it then ethical to put the pressure of decision-making on parents?

Thanks for bringing this topic up, @Wayne, it is really interesting and challenging.
 

Hip

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While aluminium is added to enhance the impact of inactivated vaccines (diphteria, tetanus for example), it is not part of the attenuated live vaccines (Masern, Mumps, Röteln, Windpocken - measles, mumps, rubella, varicella), at least not in Germany.
You are right, the CDC say here that the following vaccines contain no adjuvant:
ActHIB, chickenpox, live zoster (Zostavax), measles, mumps & rubella (MMR), meningococcal (Menactra, Menveo), rotavirus, seasonal influenza (except Fluad), single antigen polio (IPOL), yellow fever



MMF does NOT include symptoms like myalgia, chronic fatigue, cognitive dysfunction. This is (according to the Institute) a view voiced by some authors, not a general shared view.
According to this paper on macrophagic myofasciitis:
Affected patients usually are middle-aged adults, mainly presenting with diffuse arthromyalgias, chronic fatigue, and marked cognitive deficits, not related to pain, fatigue, or depression. Clinical features usually correspond to that observed in chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis.
The interesting thing about macrophagic myofasciitis is that the average time between vaccination and the onset of macrophagic myofasciitis symptoms is 7 months, according to this paper, and the very fastest onset the authors came across was two weeks.

Whereas in most of the cases of vaccine-triggered ME/CFS I've seen on this forum, the individual was hit with full-blown ME/CFS within 2 or 3 days of the vaccination.

So when a vaccine appears to trigger ME/CFS there is often this very rapid onset; but when a vaccine triggers macrophagic myofasciitis, the onset is usually very gradual.



So I think what this shows is that much more research is needed into this topic, because many contradicting opinions are out there.
I think part of the issue with vaccine discussions is the polarization of opinion, which does not lead to nuanced and intelligent debate. I prefer not to get involved in the war of opinions, but just look at the situation calmly and rationally.

I think we desperately need more vaccinations, to protect us from all the pathogens that are, in my view, the likely cause of many chronic diseases of currently unknown etiology. On the other hand, in our enthusiasm to vaccinate I don't think we should neglect the issues of vaccine safety, and in particular the apparent link between vaccination and the sudden triggering of ME/CFS. That needs to be investigated.



I'd advise anyone who worries about vaccination to research family history before they make their decision. It won't take you long to find families that had to bury three or four children – and sometimes one of the parents, too, leaving the rest destitute – in the space of three weeks.
I agree that vaccines have protected us from a lot of disease and sudden death; but I feel even though there has been this progress, we are still in the dark ages of medicine, in the sense that most medical scientists just don't seem to "get it" when it comes to the likely link between dozens of other common pathogens and myriad diseases — pathogens we don't yet have any vaccines for.
 
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Wayne

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Thanks for bringing this topic up, @Wayne, it is really interesting and challenging.
I haven't had the energy to post today, but have been appreciating yours and others' thoughtful and respectful comments here.
So when a vaccine appears to trigger ME/CFS there is often this very rapid onset; but when a vaccine triggers macrophagic myofasciitis, the onset is usually very gradual.
I've read that if any kind of symtom or reaction occurs more than 15 days after getting a vaccination, the vaccine is automatically discounted as a possible cause. Makes a person wonder how they "scientifically" came to that number of 15 days. Sounds quite arbitrary to me, and certainly not scientific.

I read an account of a woman who went to get an HPV vaccine, but had a bad cold at the time. She asked her doctor is that would be a problem, to which she was answered with a resounding NO. Couldn't possibly be a problem. -- She ended up with CFS, and felt quite certain it was because she had gotten a vaccination while her immune system was already struggling with another illness.

@Hip, you referenced how there are so many pathogens that we're dealing with in the world today, many of which we have no vaccinations for. My own take on these pathogens is that many people have them, and that they likely have the capability to stress our immune systems on a chronic basis, and could very possibly contribute to an adverse reaction from a vaccination.

From what I can gather, vaccinations are big health factors, not only for people with ME/CFS, but the population in general. One thing that reinforced those beliefs was when I went to a local discussion on vaccinations in the progressive city I live in that has lower vaccination rates than normal.

Something that really caught my attention at that meeting was there were two separate day care center workers there who both described how easy it is to spot big differences between unvaccinated children and those who received normal vaccinations. In short, the unvaccinated children were calmer, behaved better, were more patient, had greater focus, etc.

So much discussion around vaccinations has revolved around the question of whether or not they can cause autism. I think that's looking at things way too narrowly. I think there should be a lot more research done on comparing behavioral patterns between vaccinationed and unvaccinated children, more research on whether vaccines are appropriate for people who are already sick, and more research done on the genetic makeup of those who end up with severe vaccine reactions.

And much more as well, including why there are different rates of adverse reactions when an adjuvent formula is changed. -- It's currently presumed that changing adjuvents does change the safety profile of a given vaccination, even though there's plenty of proof that it does.
 
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Hip

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I've read that if any kind of symtom or reaction occurs more than 15 days after getting a vaccination, the vaccine is automatically discounted as a possible cause. Makes a person wonder how they "scientifically" came to that number of 15 days. Sounds quite arbitrary to me, and certainly not scientific.
If you are looking for hard evidence of vaccine adverse events, it makes good sense that the adverse effect symptoms should occur very soon after the vaccination. Otherwise if the symptoms appear many months or years after a vaccination, those symptoms may well be from another cause.

In the case of ME/CFS, for example, we know that viral infections can trigger this disease, and can often trigger it within days of catching an infection. So if you experienced a sudden onset ME/CFS, but the last time you had a vaccine was 6 months ago, that suggests it was due to catching an ME/CFS-associated virus, rather than the vaccine.



I think there should be a lot more research done on comparing behavioral patterns between vaccinationed and unvaccinated children, more research on whether vaccines are appropriate for people who are already sick, and more research done on the genetic makeup of those who end up with severe vaccine reactions.
I think once we have a wider range of vaccines which cover many more of the nasty viruses and bacteria in general circulation (this may take 50 or more years to achieve), there will be a noticeable difference between the behavioral patterns, mental state and physical health of vaccinated versus unvaccinated people.

I suspect that we will find in future that the unvaccinated are far more prone to mental health problems such as depression, anxiety, OCD, irritability, etc, and far more prone to cognitive difficulties such poor memory and word recall abilities, and far more prone to physical chronic diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, etc. This is because many mental and physical diseases are associated with common pathogens; but once we have a wide spectrum vaccination program, these diseases may largely disappear.

In my own case, I observed with horror as my virus, which triggered my ME/CFS and is likely coxsackievirus B4, caused a whole array of nasty physical and mental diseases in the friends and family it infected (those diseases I listed in my post here). This common CVB4 virus destroyed the lives of several of my friends and family.

And yet few people seems concerned with — or even aware of — the physical and mental damage that such a common viruses can cause. The general public often think environmental toxins are the cause of chronic disease (and certainly these are a factor); but few members of general public are even aware of the pathogen connection to chronic diseases.

I think it is terrible that we are living in a world where there are hundreds of nasty pathogens passing from person to person, which are the likely the cause of a whole array of mental and physical illness, as well as subclinical conditions — like those people who always feel under the weather or are always depressed. This is the the view of researchers like Prof Paul Ewald. I think 200 years from now, people will look back at this era we are living in, and they will view our world as the dark ages, because chronic disease is rife in our world, and it may be all down to the pathogens in circulation, we we currently have no means to protect ourselves from.
 

Hip

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I think there should be a lot more research done on comparing behavioral patterns between vaccinationed and unvaccinated children
What I would like to see is some research in any possible behavioral effects of injecting a pure aluminum hydroxide adjuvant into animals. That might yield interesting results.

Because aluminum hydroxide naturally forms insoluble microparticles when placed in solution, and because these microparticles can be eaten by phagocytes (like macrophages) and carried into the brain (see this paper), it's possible that these microparticles may affect the central nervous system, and alter mental state.



Aluminum hydroxide adjuvants though might become a non-issue in the future, as these are set to be replaced by laser adjuvants. Laser light shone onto the skin produces a more effective immune stimulation than current chemical adjuvants, allowing vaccinations to be more effective. That is the basis of a laser adjuvant. And because light leaves no chemical ingredients in the body, it may well be a lot safer than current chemical adjuvants.
 
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