Article -- Physicians Urge Government to Let Parents Make Vaccine Decisions

Wayne

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Vit. C i.v. you mention here as a treatment. Vaccines are a prevention. ......... In people with renal disease, Vitamin C is contraindicated. So if Vit.C was the go-to treatment, you'd also sacrifice quite a lot of people...
IV Vit. has virtually no major side effects for most people. Vaccines are known to kill and maime people, and cause a considerable number of people to develop life-long, severely disabling ME/CFS. Given these two starkly contrasting scenarios, shouldn't we the people instead of the government be deciding which course of action we feel is best for ourselves and our families?

For those that have renal disease, if they didn't want to rely on dangerous Vitmain C, they would always have the option to vaccinate themselves. Nothing would prevent them from making that choice. -- No sacrifices here.
 

Rufous McKinney

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we don't even know if these daycare workers
Anecdotally: I would assume at the present time, that teachers DO know who is or is not vaccinated. Because if there is an outbreak of X, those unvaccinated kids would stay home. Maybe they are still exposed, due to latency. Here in California, I guess teachers no longer have anyone unvaccinated to observe.
 

Wayne

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This was only two women. And they're daycare workers, not trained behavioral analysts. We don't know the types of tasks the children were completing when they were "observed" and we don't even know if these daycare workers were accurate in their assumptions of which kids were vaccinated or not.
Correct, but it doesn't mean we should discount their observations. I thought their comments at that meeting were quite salient and meaningful. They were not scientific, but I think the important relevance of their observations goes to show the limitations of looking at a topic like vaccinations from only the relatively narrow viewpoint of science alone. -- Especially since much of what's referred to as science is actually corrupted science to suit very specific financial and political agendas.
 
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Especially since much of what's referred to as science is actually corrupted science to suit very specific financial and political agendas
This could not be farther from the truth. Vaccinations have been around FOR DECADES by now they are incredibly inexpensive to manufacture. They are so inexpensive they are given out by the tens of thousands every month to third world countries every month. If they wanted to make money they'd come up with something new. The real money maker scams are those intravenous IV drip bars. If those really worked you'd get those in the hospital or the clinic. Your doctor doesn't want to hurt you or withhold necessary medicine from you. If you needed it then it would be prescribed for you.
 

Hip

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They were not scientific, but I think the important relevance of their observations goes to show the limitations of looking at a topic like vaccinations from only the relatively narrow viewpoint of science alone.
This issue of turning intuitive, empathic observations into scientific measures is a difficult one. When my Coxsackie B4 virus spread to over 30 friends and family, I observed it caused a lot of overt physical and mental disease, such as sudden heart attacks (one which was fatal) and viral myocarditis in the previously healthy, and mental conditions such as generalized anxiety disorder and depression.

In two people the virally-induced depression and mental changes were so severe that they left their jobs and their social lives and literally became hermits; they cut off from most of society. One actually went to live a hut he built in the forest. That's a serious mental state change.

Those kind of overt, serious mental and physical illnesses you can measure scientifically in studies (and I would love to see more studies performed on coxsackievirus B and the diseases it may trigger). But I noticed there were also some subclinical changes my virus produced in most people who caught it — subtle subclinical changes that are much harder to measure using scientific methods.

I noticed that nearly all who caught my virus developed permanent but subclinical personality changes. Personality changes like becoming more irritable, less emotional, more sensitive to stress, less sociable and more insular, less tolerant of the views and opinions of others, etc.

I hate to see humanity oppressed or afflicted by factors which make them less what they could be, that make them less than the bubbly, emotional, wholesome and spiritual people they should be. So it pains me that this virus I caught is not only causing serious physical and mental diseases in around 10% who catch it, but also a detrimental subclinical degradation in personality qualities in nearly everyone who acquires this virus.

And this virus is traveling freely around the world, and likely infecting millions of people, reducing their humanity, and reducing the quality of their lives.

But if you want to get the attention of the scientific community, you need to prove what I observed in using objective scientific measures. That can be very difficult. Some things can be easy to perceive intuitively (if you are the empathetic type), but hard to measure in an objective scientific way.
 
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But if you want to get the attention of the scientific community, you need to prove what I observed in using objective scientific measures. That can be very difficult. Some things can be easy to perceive intuitively (if you are the empathetic type), but hard to measure in an objective scientific way.
It would be easy to measure by going off of family/friend/caregiver report of behavior change. For Coxsackie B virus one of the main symptoms is behavioral or personality changes so I would assume that another person would probably report this but some people may be aware that there mood, affect and reactions have changed.
 

Wayne

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But if you want to get the attention of the scientific community, you need to prove what I observed in using objective scientific measures. That can be very difficult. Some things can be easy to perceive intuitively (if you are the empathetic type), but hard to measure in an objective scientific way.
Quite a remarkable post @Hip, I'm sure I'll be giving it some serious thought going forward.

It actually touches on another aspect of vaccinations that I have a LOT of concern about; that they might actually be weakening immune systems in the long run, making us more vulnerable to any number of infections. Are vaccines responsible for what seems like an explosion in auto-immune diseases? A lot of evidence suggests they are, but no scientific proof exists, at least in part because they're not looking for it.

And along those lines, are vaccinations contributing to what seems like an overall weakening of the immune systems of people these days? And why are people so much sicker these days than a few decades ago. Of course there are a lot of factors that are different from many years ago, but shouldn't we at least be looking at whether vaccinations--which have become so ubiquitous during this time--may have played a significant role?

I guess one more thing: I've come to the understanding--or have come to believe--that whatever affects the immune system affects the brain. So it's no stretch for me to believe that vaccinations (and perhaps infections like the Coxsackie B4 virus) which produce an exaggerated immune response, can (and do) often injure the brain, significantly affecting brain function.
 

Hip

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It would be easy to measure by going off of family/friend/caregiver report of behavior change.
Certainly if the behavioral and mental state change was at a clinical level (like you might get if someone becomes clinically depressed, or develops some autism spectrum condition), others may observe that. And in the cases where my virus caused these overt mental health conditions, like anxiety and depression, these were usually picked up by doctors, and antidepressant treatments were given in some cases.

But I also noticed these more subtle (but permanent) mental state changes in those who caught my virus; I used to have quite good empathic skills, being able to tune into the minds of others better than most (though unfortunately I found ME/CFS really blunted those empathic abilities). So via empathic observation I noticed these subtle changes. But it is hard to turn such intuitive observations of subtle mental state changes into objective scientific measures.


In my efforts to try to alert the scientific community about my pernicious virus, I emailed various enterovirus virologists, but I did not even mention the subtle personality changes (because that probably comes across as a bit woo woo), but just focused on the overt serious illnesses in the 30 or so people I know who caught my virus, which included 4 sudden heart attacks and chronic myocarditis causes requiring hospitalization, and two ruptured bowels requiring emergency surgery (the full list of medical conditions my virus caused in these 30+ people given here).

But of the dozen or so virologists I contacted, none even replied, and the only one that did was friendly, but just brushed my observations aside.
 
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Wayne

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But of the dozen or so virologists I contacted, none even replied, and the only one that did was friendly, but just brushed my observations aside.
I would be interested in what your thoughts are on those non-responses. To me, it's just one more confirmation on how limited "scientific" viewpoints often are, because of the failure to consider any number of relevant factors in an overall equation.

One relevant factor that is normally dismissed out of hand is a mother's empathic sense for what's going on with her child. How often do pediatricians wave off certain concerns and observations from mothers about their children as unscientific and invalid, and completely closing the door on any further discussion?

In the case of vaccination reactions, it seems they almost always start repeating the common mantras of "correlation doesn't prove causation", and "vaccinations have been proven to be safe and effective". These types of brusque dismissals of mothers' concerns are simply unacceptable, because they are highly important and much needed perspectives that too many doctors have been taught to ignore.
 

Hip

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Are vaccinations responsible for what seems like an explosion in auto-immune diseases? A lot of evidence suggests they are, but no scientific proof exists, at least in part because they're not looking for it.
...
shouldn't we at least be looking at whether vaccinations--which have become so ubiquitous during this time--may have played a significant role?
I agree, we should. One researcher who is interested in the idea that vaccine adjuvants might be causing autoimmunity is Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld. Post about his ideas here.

He also recently published a paper which showed that injecting high doses of adjuvants into sheep altered their behavior. Though it was a small scale study.
 

Rufous McKinney

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an explosion in auto-immune diseases? A lot of evidence suggests they are, but no scientific proof exists, at least in part because they're not looking for it.
Tweeted that sentence earlier this week! Felt better, after wards.

They have shot so many variables at us: we are staggering here. Why are so many people sick with autoimmune disorders. So its not the Mercury (they say);its not those fumes in the sky coming out of the planes, its not all those vaccinations; its not the toxic pesticides sprayed on our food, even when you bought organic (cause the wind blows, and its all wrapped in plastic). Spider Woman's web (the electronics). Oh: stress. Oh: fear, discussed everywhere, every day.

In the 1960s it was called: Better Living Thru Chemistry. I think we blundered.
 

Wayne

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vaccine adjuvants might be causing autoimmunity
And then there's the whole topic of peanut oil being used as an adjuvent, which correlated with the dramatic upsurge in children being highly vulnerable to even the minutest exposure to peanuts. And yet, manufacturers of vaccines that have gone through the trials process can change the adjuvent at any time for any reason, and not have to resubmit it for approval. -- Again my point that the claim about vaccinations being safe and effective and "scientific" just don't hold water.
 

Hip

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I would be interested in what your thoughts are on those non-responses. To me, it's just one more confirmation on how limited "scientific" viewpoints often are, because of the failure to consider any number of relevant factors in an overall equation.
In think it is because the scientific community hold some prejudiced assumptions which makes it hard for them to appreciate that everyday pathogens might be behind most of humanity's mental and physical health problems.

But I saw with my own eyes what a common virus like CVB4 can do, and once you have seen that, it literally changes your worldview. It makes you look at mental and physical health and ill-health in a whole new light. We know that mental health is becoming an increasing issue even among young children, but almost nobody in the scientific community seems to consider the possibly that common pathogens may be the cause.

Because the human race has started living in increasingly dense urban environments in recent decades, rather than spaced apart towns and villages, this allows pathogens to more easily jump from one human being to the next. And globalization allows pathogens to jump from country to county. So modern urbanization may be leading to viral overload in the world's citizens. And each new virus you catch may lead to a disease, including autoimmune diseases.

Also, I am as liberal as the next person, but I have to say that liberal sexual values likely greatly worsen the pathogen spread situation, because each new partner or one-night stand than people have allows the spread of viruses through kissing. People may use condom protection to stop sexual infections, but that does not stop the vast majority of pathogens spreading via saliva. I actually picked up my horrible virus through kissing on a date. That one kiss destroyed my life!
 
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But it is hard to turn such intuitive observations of subtle mental state changes into objective scientific measures.
This is unfortunate and I'm sorry you feel that you weren't taken seriously. You should have contacted your local health department or the CDC. I'm not sure what exactly you expected these virologists to be able to do, they would have had no way to legally access your friends medical records, no hospital privileges, probably no local lab setup. They couldn't just show up and start investigating. Not to mention the cost or fee arrangements. The local health department if it hadn't been notified already would have been a better start.

In the case of vaccination reactions, it seems they almost always start repeating the common mantras of "correlation doesn't prove causation", and "vaccinations have been proven to be safe and effective". These types of brusque dismissals of mothers' concerns are simply unacceptable
I've had a child with a reaction to a vaccine and I can tell you that "they" do take it very seriously when it happens. My son had an allergic reaction which presented as a rash over his entire body when he was a baby. It was attributed to vaccinations and taken seriously by his doctor. It was reported to the health department and he was placed on an alternate vaccination schedule. Since then I have worked in medical offices and the protocol is to contact the health department for all adverse reactions.
 

Rufous McKinney

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I actually picked up my horrible virus through kissing on a date.
Just dittoed that in another post: how I had failed to remember that when I first got EBV at 10: it was called the kissing disease, I was on restriction at school, all my peers knew, it was very embarrassing. Had not kissed anybody (obviously, I"m ten).
 

Hip

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This is unfortunate and I'm sorry you feel that you weren't taken seriously. You should have contacted your local health department or the CDC. I'm not sure what exactly you expected these virologists to be able to do, they would have had no way to legally access your friends medical records, no hospital privileges, probably no local lab setup. They couldn't just show up and start investigating. Not to mention the cost or fee arrangements. The local health department if it hadn't been notified already would have been a better start.
The US CDC and the UK equivalent (the HPA, now renamed Public Health England) were the first people I contacted, on more than one occasion, but still got no replies. Only later did I email individual virologists.

I know that an individual virologist may not be able to do much, but at the very least they might have said that they found my observations interesting.

I have two science degrees (though not in medicine or biology), and I know the language of science and how to communicate with scientists. But I've not been able to find anyone who is interested in what I observed.
 
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The US CDC and the UK equivalent (the HPA, now renamed Public Health England) were the first people I contacted, on more than one occasion, but still got no replies.
Are you in the US? Because here it seems like if three people get food poisoning from pizza Hut it's on the news and the health department is involved. With 30 people sick with the same virus I can't imagine it wasn't reported. They don't have to notify you that they report your illness to the health department or the CDC so you may not even know.
 

Lisa108

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IV Vit. has virtually no major side effects for most people.
[my bold]
You said you wouldn't want to sacrifice even one.
You could replace IV Vit. [C] with vaccines and the sentence would hold true as well.

For those that have renal disease, if they didn't want to rely on dangerous Vitmain C, they would always have the option to vaccinate themselves. Nothing would prevent them from making that choice. -- No sacrifices here.
So now vaccines are no risk of sacrifice? Not even one? Why, then we all could take vaccinations...
Vit.C i.v. is detrimental for pw renal disease. It is a large group of patients. There are more patient groups where this would be the case.

But let's call it a stalemate.

I do think we need further research. Always. In both directions.
To have better treatments, because as Hip pointed out, those pathogens are far from being harmless, and very likely produce the same problems that people want to dodge by not vaccinating.

There is a lot of mistrust, fear and perceived risk around vaccinations, though.

I think we also feel a false sense of security, because we do not remember how severe those diseases are that vaccines have helped to decimate. If one has never seen a case of tetanus, the perceived risk of the vaccine might be rated higher as the perceived risk of the disease.

Yes, I know, Vit. C i.v. , the One cure for all. most.
I've also read (on orthomolecular medicine sites) that children were given Vit. C i.v. before /with vaccines to prevent side-effects and harm. So here's your solution!