Chaotic Immune System

Wishful

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From https://newatlas.com/chaos-theory-immune-system/58131/ :

"The immune system is incredibly complex, but most of us would probably assume that ideally it runs very precisely, like clockwork. However, a new study has found that a big dose of chaos is not just present but may be a necessary piece of the puzzle in helping the immune system regulate itself."

Basically, the levels of various cytokines have to vary over specific ranges in order for other activities, such as gene activation, to occur at the optimum rate. If those cytokines vary too much or too little, the immune system won't be working properly. Chaotic systems can certainly get locked into improper states, so this could explain ME. Unfortunately, chaotic systems are harder to understand than linear systems, so if ME is the result of variations in chaotic states, progress might be slow. However, researchers could try to 'shock' the immune system into a different state, and find an effective treatment even without understanding exactly what's at fault.

So, no immediate breakthrough expected from this discovery, but it does open up new models of ME to think about.
 

percyval577

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A few years ago - if I havn´t dreamed it - a guy with cfs symptoms wrote that he had recovered after a new (strong) infection. A chaotic system could explain this as well, I would think.
But I would also think that such an improvement doesn´t happen regurlarily, it would be known. Maybe I have dreamed it but I don´t thnk so.
 
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nandixon

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So, no immediate breakthrough expected from this discovery, but it does open up new models of ME to think about.
We may already have the models. Dr Nancy Klimas with her computational biologists, including Gordon Broderick, began using chaos theory for the immune system (and its interaction with the HPA and HPG axes) in both Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS several years ago and built separate models for both sexes of each disease using US Department of Defense supercomputers and blood cytokine measurements for patients taken at 9 separate time points (for each patient) before, during and up to 24 hours after exertion. (They originally tried to use just 3 time points which ended up not being sufficient for modeling purposes and so lost a couple of years as a result.)

The modeling has already accurately predicted a curative treatment for the very good GWI mouse model. Things went so well in fact that Klimas thinks preliminary testing with an animal model for ME/CFS (which doesn't currently exist) may not even be necessary, and clinical trials are already underway for both a subgroup of GWI men and a group of postmenopausal ME/CFS women using a two-step sequential treatment of etanercept followed by mifepristone to first dampen down proinflammatory cytokines and then reset the HPA axis (which is what the computer models for those particular subgroups appear to require). Funding for a men's ME/CFS trial is only about half way complete the last I saw. The models have apparently already been made though.

Klimas has really flown under the radar for most people here on PR including myself up until a few months ago because her group hasn't done the best job about publicity and fundraising, probably because she's had plenty of money from the DOD for the GWI side of things. She's probably several years closer to getting us an actual treatment than any other ME/CFS researcher since she's already at the human clinical trials stage and believes existing drugs can be repurposed as the models require. She just needs more money to trial the treatments that the chaos theory-based models are predicting should work.
 

Wishful

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That's the kind of 'reset' treatment I've thought might be necessary for ME: hit it hard to shake things up, and maybe it will reset properly. Some biasing, maybe not damping the immune system, but altering one or more specific cytokines or nutrients, might help proper resetting. I wouldn't be surprised if the same treatment was effective for a number of similar diseases.
 

Belbyr

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I'm cautiously optimistic about it. The modeling makes sense and the way they tracked people that got sick with Mono to go on and develop chronic fatigue syndrome is pretty amazing. I would like to see what her group is seeing in T cells and how they compare to what Mark Davis is seeing (really looking forward to his presentation in April to the NIH). There is still a chance that our immune systems are actually fighting something.
 

Wishful

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I had a thought about this: if this theory is valid, then it could explain why ME isn't helped by immunosuppressants. Maybe we need to increase some cytokines at the same time that we reduce others, so reducing all cytokines at the same time doesn't reset our systems.

Another wild thought: maybe our cytokines vary cyclically, and the phase between them is important. Alternatively, maybe the frequency of each cytokine's cycle is important, relative to the others. Testing cytokine levels once won't reveal such short time-dependant variations, so it could have just slipped past researcher's notice.
 

perrier

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We may already have the models. Dr Nancy Klimas with her computational biologists, including Gordon Broderick, began using chaos theory for the immune system (and its interaction with the HPA and HPG axes) in both Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS several years ago and built separate models for both sexes of each disease using US Department of Defense supercomputers and blood cytokine measurements for patients taken at 9 separate time points (for each patient) before, during and up to 24 hours after exertion. (They originally tried to use just 3 time points which ended up not being sufficient for modeling purposes and so lost a couple of years as a result.)

The modeling has already accurately predicted a curative treatment for the very good GWI mouse model. Things went so well in fact that Klimas thinks preliminary testing with an animal model for ME/CFS (which doesn't currently exist) may not even be necessary, and clinical trials are already underway for both a subgroup of GWI men and a group of postmenopausal ME/CFS women using a two-step sequential treatment of etanercept followed by mifepristone to first dampen down proinflammatory cytokines and then reset the HPA axis (which is what the computer models for those particular subgroups appear to require). Funding for a men's ME/CFS trial is only about half way complete the last I saw. The models have apparently already been made though.

Klimas has really flown under the radar for most people here on PR including myself up until a few months ago because her group hasn't done the best job about publicity and fundraising, probably because she's had plenty of money from the DOD for the GWI side of things. She's probably several years closer to getting us an actual treatment than any other ME/CFS researcher since she's already at the human clinical trials stage and believes existing drugs can be repurposed as the models require. She just needs more money to trial the treatments that the chaos theory-based models are predicting should work.
Is there any news available about her trials? Awfully quiet from that corner.
 

Belbyr

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I had a thought about this: if this theory is valid, then it could explain why ME isn't helped by immunosuppressants. Maybe we need to increase some cytokines at the same time that we reduce others, so reducing all cytokines at the same time doesn't reset our systems.

Another wild thought: maybe our cytokines vary cyclically, and the phase between them is important. Alternatively, maybe the frequency of each cytokine's cycle is important, relative to the others. Testing cytokine levels once won't reveal such short time-dependant variations, so it could have just slipped past researcher's notice.
That is a good point, it is rare when someone feels better on steroids. Heck, anti-inflammatories don't do anything for me either.
 

Belbyr

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Is there any news available about her trials? Awfully quiet from that corner.
Yes it is. They are doing a better job with their website, they were featured in their local news again recently, and Nancy did a short video wanting to raise a little money for patients that can't afford treatment.

She speaks to the NIH in about 2-3 months, I'm sure it will be recorded.
 

prioris

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Any one try beta glucan for your immune system ...

The optimal way or correct way to take it is you take 1000 mg or more first thing in morning upon awakening on empty stomach and wait a half an hour. Should feel something within a couple days if it helps.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1...-bullet-or-hot-air-open-glycoscience-2010.pdf

I wouldn't wait for the research. I'd be looking for new products coming on market. Beta glucan is top immune supplement.
 

Wishful

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I had one depressing thought about the chaotic immune system theory. It would be a difficult theory to prove, and even more difficult to disprove. Just the sort of thing health scammers love to exploit. Expect new 'treatments' based on modifying your cytokine fluctuations, with lots of chaos theory marketing keywords, supported solely by anecdotal evidence. :(
 

prioris

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I had one depressing thought about the chaotic immune system theory. It would be a difficult theory to prove, and even more difficult to disprove. Just the sort of thing health scammers love to exploit. Expect new 'treatments' based on modifying your cytokine fluctuations, with lots of chaos theory marketing keywords, supported solely by anecdotal evidence. :(
immune system is a complex beast ... any real potential treatment has to be low enough cost to try and in a health supplement form ... any pharmaceutical product i wouldn't touch with ten foot pole
 

Wishful

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I'd take a pharmaceutical product if it was proven to treat or cure ME. It might take a very serious chemical to hit our immune/hormone system hard enough to reset it. I wouldn't continue suffering just because the treatment wasn't 'natural organic, GMO-free, low-sodium, etc'. Whatever chemical you think is the best example of a 'dangerous artificial substance' might actually be produced in a natural, organic form somewhere in the world; evolution is very creative.
 

prioris

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I'd take a pharmaceutical product if it was proven to treat or cure ME. It might take a very serious chemical to hit our immune/hormone system hard enough to reset it. I wouldn't continue suffering just because the treatment wasn't 'natural organic, GMO-free, low-sodium, etc'. Whatever chemical you think is the best example of a 'dangerous artificial substance' might actually be produced in a natural, organic form somewhere in the world; evolution is very creative.
do you know of any pharmaceuticals that have cured ... pharmaceutical companies study how nature cures things then tries to duplicate it synthetically to patent it ... usually results in something not as good as nature ...

let's say a pharmaceutical company did come up with something ... all the natural medicine people would do is look for similar in nature ... it would do the same at way less than the cost of a pharmaceutical drug and way less side effects

pharmaceuticals is generally a corrupt and dangerous form of medicine... it doesn't focus on curing because it goes against their business models
 

JES

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do you know of any pharmaceuticals that have cured ... pharmaceutical companies study how nature cures things then tries to duplicate it synthetically to patent it ... usually results in something not as good as nature ...

let's say a pharmaceutical company did come up with something ... all the natural medicine people would do is look for similar in nature ... it would do the same at way less than the cost of a pharmaceutical drug and way less side effects

pharmaceuticals is generally a corrupt and dangerous form of medicine... it doesn't focus on curing because it goes against their business models
Pharmaceuticals have cured hundreds of diseases, for example tetanus, measles, smallpox and polio. Pharmaceuticals haven't yet been able to cure certain chronic diseases like ME/CFS, Alzheimer's, MS, etc., but then again, no natural medicine protocol has provenly done so either, otherwise we would know about it.

Regarding beta glucan, I trialed it a few years ago. The effect it produced for me was immune stimulation and massive increase of inflammatory symptoms after a couple of days. Most natural immune stimulators are broad spectrum, meaning they activate the entire immune system, whereas in ME/CFS part of the immune system may already be overactive and another part underactive. Adding more fuel to the fire is not going to do much for most of us and that's what most of these natural immune stimulators will do.
 

Wishful

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let's say a pharmaceutical company did come up with something ... all the natural medicine people would do is look for similar in nature ... it would do the same at way less than the cost of a pharmaceutical drug and way less side effects
Umm, the problem with that is that the natural cure might reside in a fungus that exists on a specific type of insect that lives only in a one square km region in the Amazon rainforest, or in a bacteria that exists only 50 km underground, somewhere. It's not just 'look and you will find'.

As for pharmaceuticals that have cured or at least successfully treated diseases, I don't have a list handy, but there are plenty, and many of the artificial ones are not only as effective as naturally-produced ones, but are identical (indistinguishable), and may avoid some unhelpful compounds that might exist in the natural source.

As a counter-question: do you have a list handy for medicines that are clinically proven to be more effective from a natural source than an artificial one?
 

prioris

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Pharmaceuticals have cured hundreds of diseases, for example tetanus, measles, smallpox and polio. Pharmaceuticals haven't yet been able to cure certain chronic diseases like ME/CFS, Alzheimer's, MS, etc., but then again, no natural medicine protocol has provenly done so either, otherwise we would know about it.
tetanus, measles, smallpox and polio ... vaccines are one of the largest crimes against humanity

There is no cure for the smallpox virus

There is no prescription medication to treat measles. The virus and symptoms typically disappear within two to three weeks

Once the virus that causes polio has infected a person, there is no treatment that will cure polio.

polio ... the problem with disease back in 40s was that many thing were diagnosed as "polio"
it was a vague diagnosis. Removing DDT from food supply probably cured or prevented most supposed polio

the antibiotics have cured the most people early on (but damaged many too) but microbes are becoming resistance ...

you'll really have to reach to find things they cured beyond antibiotics
pharmaceuticals overall have been a major health disaster
 

Wishful

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Can you provide any examples of natural medicines that have cured diseases while artificial ones haven't? You can't denounce artificial medicines for failing what natural ones also fail at.

From what I've read, vaccines are considered one of the major successes of medicine. Check https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402432/ with the title of 'Simply Put, Vaccination Save Lives'.

Table 1.
Comparison of 20th century annual morbidity and current estimates vaccine-preventable diseases

Disease 20th Century annual morbidity (2) 2016 Reported cases (3) Percent decrease (%)
Smallpox 29,005 0 100
Diphtheria 21,053 0 100
Measles 530,217 69 >99
Mumps 162,344 5,311 97
Pertussis 200,752 15,737 92
Polio (paralytic) 16,316 0 100
Rubella 47,745 5 >99
Congenital rubella syndrome 152 1 99
Tetanus 580 33 94
Haemophilus influenzae 20,000 22* >99

While I don't bother with vaccines for easily-survivable infections (flu), it certainly does make sense for the frequently fatal ones. While I do believe that my tetanus booster triggered my ME, I don't believe that the vaccination caused the predisposition for ME, and I'd likely have triggered on something else.

If we move past the 'cure' argument, artificial medicines do seem more effective at treating diseases than natural medicines. How many people here drink willow bark tea for a headache rather than take an artificial NSAID? Some herbal remedies are effective, but if they work because of one active compound, they'll likely be as effective if artificially produced. Some herbal remedies might depend on additional substances in the herb, but those can be produced artificially too. Some herbal remedies also contain harmful substances. Natural doesn't mean safe.

If you want to rely on herbal remedies, that's your choice. If you want to claim that natural medicines are clinically proven to be safer than artificial ones, you'll have to provide clear evidence, which I think would be difficult.
 

prioris

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there is no pharmaceutical cure for polio
just better sanitation will prevent diseases
you think we should credit the sanitation department
agendas, corruption, greed and lies pervade conventional medicine
it is designed to be expensive
the medical establishment hasn't even adopted the marik protocol for sepsis
they think giving the protocol to 150 sepsis patients with no deaths is not enough proof
there are millions of unnecessary operations
as far as evidence natural medicine is safer ... next you'll want me to prove the sun exists
it's clear that generally they don't give a manure about healing the patient

they aided and abetted vaccines, mercury fillings, fluoridated water, pesticide laden GMO foods etc ... conventional medicine is perverted to the core
 

Wishful

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Is there a natural cure for polio? If a permanent cure for something isn't feasible, and effective treatment is the next best thing to a cure. Better sanitation won't prevent diseases, just reduce their chances of spreading. Against the nastier diseases, I'd want good sanitation, good nutrition and exercise, and the backup of conventional medicine in case the first defences fail.

I agree about the problems with conventional medicine, but not the degree to which you seem to hold. Pretty much everything has some good and some bad. Do you really want to eliminate all artificial medicines? No anaesthetic at the dentist or the surgery table? I'm not sure whether any of the natural antibiotics is effective without processing, so too bad if you get a fatal infection. Would you want smallpox to return?

I don't have a problem with mercury fillings; very little mercury is released from them ( it's tightly bound in the amalgam). What purely natural substance would you replace amalgam with for fillings? Fluorination of water is one of those good/bad things that is still debated without a clear result. Genetic modification is simply a tool, which can be used for good or bad; it is not inherently evil. I haven't heard of any truly unsafe GMOs that have been available to the public.

as far as evidence natural medicine is safer ... next you'll want me to prove the sun exists
In other words, you don't have any actual evidence that natural medicine is safer and equally or more effective. If you did, you could just offer that evidence, rather than implying that it's too obvious to need posting. I don't know of any obvious examples. Natural medicines that are safe but clinically ineffective don't count.