Managing Potassium Deficiency - Share your experience

WillowJ

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I haven't read the thread, and I am not doing methylation per se (though I do take vitamin B supplements). however I do tend to have low serum potassium. I get tingly hands.

My doctor prescribes potassium supplements. I think the extended release kind work better.

I think this was mentioned on the first page, but I bought a juicer. I evidently don't tolerate fiber (best guess why a number of unrelated foods are on my "can't" list) so I'd lost most vegetables and fruits. I have had the juicer only a few days, but I have to say it's awesome.

I have been able to have kale juice, celery juice, and so on (I put these in hot dishes--not the way people doing "juicing" do, but works for me). I have been having apple juice, which I normally can't have, and not only does it not hardly bother me but it tastes fabulous.

I am going to talk to my doc about reducing my potassium Rx, since I am now eating foods containing potassium.
 

Johnmac

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I don't have ME/CFS but I do get K deficiency: heart palps only, so far as I am aware.

I just take a half-cap of potassium chloride & they go away. I do that once or twice a day.
 

Sparrowhawk

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Out of curiosity, when you all refer to heart palps, are you talking atrial or ventrical? Short hammer like palps lower in the chest, or brief fluttering in the top of the chest? I've had both, but magnesium seems to help in both cases. I've never dosed potassium because I'm afraid to unbalance that electrolyte and it seems the line would be hard to know without blood testing to monitor your doses?
 
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General potassium questions are covered in PMC3650509 (it thinks the link is spam so I can't put it in - search). It appears that potassium chloride is not great for bone density.
 

ahmo

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Hi @picante Seems a lifetime away since I posted that. I'm not even needing K+ these days. Presumably my carrot and nut/seed intake is covering it. I doubt if it was thyroid reaction for me, as I take a consistent dose of thyroid med, as T3. As I recall, it wasn't as severe as hormonal hot flush.
 
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Even though I've been going very low and slow, I've run into the dreaded "potassium deficiency with methylation startup" problem, and would like to hear about your experiences with this, and how you got through it.
The symptoms are very similar to magnesium deficiency, and my potassium showed good on my Nutreval test, so I got mislead into thinking I needed more magnesium supplementation. This was the wrong thing to do. After having problems, I consulted with my doc and he got me straightened out. I shut down methylation with niacin, and I'm currently doing high potassium foods and avoiding magnesium supplements, and I'm feeling much better.
My symptoms were heart palps, a stressed feeling, progressing into more and more anxiety, until I started having panic attacks waking me up during sleep, twitching feet waking me up during sleep, and a rash between my baby and ring finger.
What I call magnesium deficiency symptoms are heart palps and twitchy feet waking me up during sleep. Who knows, maybe those have been potassium symptoms the whole time, or maybe a combination of magnesium and potassium deficiency.
Anyway, once I get straightened out, I'm going to resume methylation. So that means going through another period of a high need for potassium. I'm interested in hearing how people got through this. Were you able to go low and slow enough to manage it via foods and/or low level balanced supplementation, as through a multivitamin or an electrolyte supplement?
I'm leery of taking potassium-only supplements as there could be a danger of skewing your electrolytes the other way, as I did with magnesiutation.
If you were successful, how long did it take you to get through this step?
I've done a little research, and the potassium thing seems to be unique to ME/CFS patients. Yasko doesn't mention it, and Rich Vank wasn't aware of it until Freddd posted about it. A lot of people on here trying Freddd's protocol have posted about needing potassium supplementation, but I haven't seen this on Yasko's forum.
Caledonia, thanks for posting this, came up in Google, so I can mine it for answers. At least this looks related to my present conditions rather than being something brand new, which is good.

On potassium. I've got some overlapping issues making it complicated, and had been going through a bit of a nightmare. I've landed up in hospital, been in the memory clinic for dementia like symptoms, been sick and weak, and had the runs which is not good for potassium.

Going back to maybe 2011, I was testing out lots of supps. Testing one by one addition in the daily cycles in different orders in order to prove which ones in which combinations affected me. I was using mostly straight nutrition supplements including sports ones and niacin (with legendary massive burns), and Jack 3D at the time. It was working really impressively, but Jack 3D contains a stimulant that can severely down turn some people like a nervousness wreck after, and also in the long term compromise you.

But I was getting stuff finally done. But, considering what has happened subsequently, I don't know how I was utilising/getting more potassium better at time (re-edit: Lugos iodine formula with potassium) But anyway, I made mistakes.

Things like B12 I tried, I stopped taking, and NAC and potassium iodine??, and things came crashing down. Subsequently things got oddly down hill like before, but different name worse and got a skin cancer (some cancers can put out stuff that said you). For testing at specialists I didn't take things for great stretches of time. So, a bumpy ride was had afterwards.

I started drinking coca cola and noticed some changes. I determined that the two things in there that might be responsible, where the potassium and the phosphoric acid. Now, I stopped with the cola, and got diagnosed with low B12 and then a mthfr gene defect (the methylated B12 related gene defect has been shown as well) but was not on B12 much.

So, I started nicotinamide riboside latter, and was great for a couple of weeks until I started using a cancer cream on my leg, and as my immune system came up after the NR, I got all sorts of the very serious symptoms related to problems with that, and every time I tried methylfolate). I also had a great amount of dementia like symptoms, which I eventually treated with methyl-B12, but was sensitive to even methyl-B12. But I was now reacting to Methylfolate and NR doses which fogged things out and made things off. So, I wonder if that was really low potassium.

I had tried potassium, but during exercise I was up to doing by the time (probably on NR) it was making my heart go crazy and I think weak. After it calmed down hours latter (presumably the potassium level dropped with all the flushing of water etc I did) it seemed to go in reverse with strength and stamina (I would have been using artificial sweetener vitamin C at the time too, and iron which I suspect might have been involved with the previous issue).

Latter after the other issues I starting methyl B12 with great affect, but I was careful and circumspect about taking methylfolate and NR reducing amounts and carefully increasing. However, I tried riboside by itself instead.

Anyway, having recovered and starting zinc methyl b6 and other supps, I turned up and started exercise. However, I was taking potassium and concentrated curamin (I can't remember spelling at the moment) tablets had a lot of meat recently, and bought a rather large curry on special, and as things had been going so well in the last month (though up and down) figured it was finally time to really stretch it and basically wasted my muscles (releasing heaps more potassium). The next night, or the one after, I went to my.birthday party had a good sized steak, and a friend got me up to reluctantly do a dance. I was dancing away and noticed a twinge in my heart. I went and sat back down, and either then or before, got weak and out of it.

It continued on I don't know how many days, weak negative reaction to exertion, I think pain, racing heart. I went to the local doctors, who got me carted off to the hospital, who didn't find much. Back where I was staying things got worse and bed riddebly weak etc. I decided to look up to see if certain things I was taking could cause this, it seemed to be potassium. I took bicarbonate soda (I think it moves the potassium around or something) and it was reasonably quick I started to get an upturn. Bicarbonate will actually help me with stuff during and after the CFS related viral outbreaks. But, was this potassium itself causing it, or an indirect potassium related effect on some other weakness.

People's biology and biochemistry varies, what may really work on some people may have negative impacts on others due to issues they have. But pretty stupid things to do on my behalf, but you don't know or think of these things like hidden potassium consumption (I was only taking the low dose 100mg is it, tablets).

Now, I had been off stuff for blood test during massive months of severe flu for a blood test (requiring the flu go away for good for weeks). I restarted, things were shaky, and I had a few issues, and the runs and after also from a number of things I started taking which easily passed through me, like old DAA). But then I finally got my genetic test and methylation tests back, and was half of the minimum on the Methylation scale. So, I started the new treatment SAMe from the doctor, which I noted seemed to make me worse the one time I tried it fir a few days.

I had been getting messed up with severe hard time trying to build up exercise going back and forwards, lots of pain, reduced stamina, well behind what I should be given the better health. I tried slow one by one reintroductions of various nutrients to find which helped more. But, the SAMe made it go downhill. I noticed the old bottle of potassium in the fridge I had been ignoring for ages since the previous heart issue, and felt I should try it. It worked wonderfully and I was back where I should be, and like at the good time earlier in the decade.

Please note, I practice use of vitamin C chelation therapy, which my doctor agrees, should help with the build up of cellular APT by products. I don't know how good it is, but when I stopped in recent years, things went backwards in a number of ways over time. So, I don't know how effective it was, but has to be taken into account with the above effects.
 
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Steve,

The standout effects you experienced from the supplement Jack3d (now discontinued) came from a nasal decongestant called Methylhexanamine (DMAA). This substance in conjunction with caffeine will deliver extreme mental/physical stimulation. DMAA was the secret sauce to a majority of the pre-workout supplements of its time.

In my opinion, supplemental potassium has to be one of the most dangerous recommendations made on this forum. Load up on potassium rich foods instead.
 
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23lies. I mentioned the Jack3D (I know the ingredient) and others for context. Ussually it's affect will diminish faster and leave you with problems, but certain things seemed to help me with it. However, potassium has regularly proved to help. I don't know for certain if the decline was after I stopped the Lugos formular (as it didn't directly seem to do much, like the NAC). However every other sequence it did have a positive effect.

I agree with you. Potassium use is tricky and poblematic and potential dangerous. I think only a small amount is needed, just to get things going. But the over the counter 100mg tablets are only small compared to regular consumption. I suspect the problem is that one can pick up a lot from some dietary sources unexpectedly on top of others. But my problem is comprised digestion which compronises nutrient uptake.

The amount needed from person to person may also vary depending on what has happened, like here alledgedly with CFS/ME (was that right?) and methylation therapy. There are different biochemistry variations in different lots of people, which produce problems, different needs, and different symptoms in CFS/ME. This should be looked at on the forums, as what may work for one person might be harmful or not work for another. Beyond the reach of average medical practice knowledge certain nutrients they regard as harmless, can be harmful to certain people. Things are far behind the research often, particularly here, so if things are not right they obviously bare some scrutiny. Some of these things are supposed to calm down too (as methylation on its own is supposed too and other things) for people without other issues. It's not that medical practice should throw their arms in the air and neurotically run around keeping the victim in a worse situation, they should be cautious and refer to greater knowledge at least etc.

Anyway, as I have problems with uptake of nutrients specific complex's of good absorption (of the kind that works best for me) in a capsule etc. It works best for me with food for cofactors and to dilute the delivery of the dose, done on an empty stomach, it all depends on the professional advice how to take it best for me.

Now latest. I've started using banna flour before bed for resistant starch to help weight loss. That's got a big hit of potassium of 390mg, alledgedly, ifine can judge it and the actual food content in there is not way off. But I was still trying the 100mg potassium tablet a little more to see if potassium enhances excercise in the house period (still difficult). The banna starch I'm suposed to have at night etc. Well, I noticed a little racing heart at night, so I drank lots of water, had some other stuff to reduce potassium and am dropping the 100mg tablet mainly.

I think that two large Asian middle soup bowls may have been high in potassium (plus dairy products after the last one with all the extra chilli in it) had a lot of potassium in it, plus another thing I just forgot (but who knows, it could even involve something else).

Maybe this packet of banna flour is way above the tested average (I presume) on the back of the passage. But that's it, even though the banna flour is significantly less (I forget how much, but think it was somewhere below 30%) dietary intake varies widely and I don't need the tablets. It doesn't matter if it's only this proportion of intake, as I am only interested in enough to get things working and being safe (however, the particular Asian soup's plus others I will be careful on at the same time as the banna flour).
 
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Steve,

I only reiterated the DMAA talk because of how personal that substance was to me in terms of personal productivity. When it became banned from work-out supplements I micro-dosed it in conjunction with caffeine to help manage the work day. As you probably know, the negative repercussions can be severe.

Lugos/Iodine experimentation never went anywhere for me. With enough iodine you'll feel your thyroid slow down and with enough selenium you'll feel it speed up again. Again, we're dealing with an unnecessary push/pull if your thyroid panel checks out.

During my potassium supplementation days, I used a product called "Nu-Salt". It's a salt alternative sold in supermarkets (potassium chloride). Many people used this to get around the FDA's potassium regulation. Again, watch for a racing heart and potential grievances with your gut if you choose to experiment.

I'm thinking of trialing resistant starch again, except this time I'm looking for a means of mitigating the extreme drops in blood glucose. It can work miracles on the gut, but at the cost of a brain fog induced blood sugar drop.
 
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Yeah, the thing about potassium is the over dose symptom list I've seen looks like the deficiency symptoms. Dangerous, you don't know which state you are in by those lists. I will have to research the more specific differences.

Now, resistant starch, how much potassium does that have in it? Banana flour has enough to void using potassium supps for me. So, it is potentually hazardous.

Last night I went for excercise and didn't walk too far, but as I dropped by a favorite Japanese Cafe to see the new menue, I had a turn and became weak and had to sit there a few hours, as I was really weak and wouldn't be able to walk more than 10 or 30 feet, drinking like 2+ litres of water and a 500ml matcha late, all of which did the trick and I could get up and walk back. More Mysteries. But I suspect the flush and calcium, phosphate etc in the dairy products with the green tea turned it around.
 
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Hi,

Well ... 8 days into @Freddd 's protocol and the dreaded start-up side effects kicked in!

Over that time I've been steadily adding new supplements to my regime as and when they arrived.

Summary
Day 1 - daily 5mg mb12 injections, along with basic supplements.
Day 3 - mfolate added
Day 5 - LCF added
Day 7 - adb12 completed the quartet!

Up until last night, I felt fantastic. Real tangible profound benefits. After about 9pm however, methylation momentum caught up with me ...

Yesterday, the adb12 (country life dibencozide) arrived, so I immediately took a 3mg tab and kept it under my tongue until it had completely dissolved. I began to feel its effects within 30 minutes, which only increased in intensity throughout the day.

Absolutely hit the spot. Quite frankly I was amazed that vitamins could create such a profound effect!

As the day progressed, however, I noticed my thoughts were becoming a little foggy. Nothing concerning, but it was a distinct lack of clarity compared with the previous 6 days on the protocol, this fogginess continued developing throughout the day.

Adding the adb12 definitely acted as a stimulant because I didn't go to bed until 1:30am, two hours later than the previous 6 days. Also, I only went to bed because it was late not because I was tired.

I had progressively felt uncomfortable throughout the evening but I was able to ignore those thoughts as I kept myself busy but by bedtime and alone with my thoughts, I began getting anxious. In addition, my legs began to itch.

This anxiety built into mild paranoia and mild panic. The itching developed and drove me crazy. I was tearing away at my legs (which are red and sore today). My thoughts became more and more confused.

in an effort to change my mindset, I was in and out of the bed, pacing the apartments. Luckily my wife was away visiting her parents.

I googled "Methylation Side Effects" and lo and behold, I found my symptoms described to a tee. This gave me some comfort so I steeled my mind to weather the storm.

I reached for the 100mg potassium tablets and took two more, but was concerned that I was going to take too much, not knowing my tolerance levels and being wary of creating further issues.

The issues continued. I took another 100mg potassium tab.

About 4:30am, I read @caledonia's post about over methylation and took two further 100mg potassium tabs, taking my total to 500mg during this mini-crisis. I also cooked some food; chicken and rice in an effort to help me sleep. Then around 4:45am I finally nodded off.

I awoke at 9am, feeling great! All the sides have gone, and oddly I feel refreshed from such a short amount of sleep.

So my question is ... what are your thoughts on ploughing ahead with my current protocol and just manage the sides with Potassium and Niacin, as I haven't taken any of today's dose yet (11am in UK)?

Day 8 of Current Protocol

5mg mb12 SC injection
4mg Solgar Metafolin
1000mg Solgar LCF
3mg Country Life Dibencozide (adb12) sublingual
2 x 100mg Solgar potassium
200mcg selenium
5000mcg Vit C powder
15mg Zinc
4 x fish oil
1 x magnesium malate
1 x multi-vit
1/4 tsp sodium bicarbonate

Thanks!
 

pamojja

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So my question is ... what are your thoughts on ploughing ahead with my current protocol and just manage the sides with Potassium and Niacin, as I haven't taken any of today's dose yet (11am in UK)?
Can't comment on your protocol because I never taken such high doses of B9 and B12. However, would recommend to change to a powdered potassium supplement (bicarbonate, citrate, chloride..) instead of capsules. There is some danger that too high doses of potassium (>100 mg) in tablets or capsules can seriously damage tissue of the stomach. Which it doesn't when dissolved in a glass of water. Meanwhile you could use your capsules by opening and dissolving them in water too.
 
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Can't comment on your protocol because I never taken such high doses of B9 and B12. However, would recommend to change to a powdered potassium supplement (bicarbonate, citrate, chloride..) instead of capsules. There is some danger that too high doses of potassium (>100 mg) in tablets or capsules can seriously damage tissue of the stomach. Which it doesn't when dissolved in a glass of water. Meanwhile you could use your capsules by opening and dissolving them in water too.
Thanks for your reply.

I have potassium bicarbonate here, but I've not opened it yet. Would the dosage (100mg) be the same with the powder as the tablets?
 

pamojja

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Thanks for your reply.

I have potassium bicarbonate here, but I've not opened it yet. Would the dosage (100mg) be the same with the powder as the tablets?
As far as I know 1 g of potassium bicarbonate contains 392 mg of elemental potassium, potassium citrate 360 mg, potassium chloride 521 mg per gram of compound. By the way, if you mix potassium bicarbonate with ascorbic acid powder in a glass of water, the bicarbonate fizzles away and potassium ascorbate is remaining in the solution.
 

Sundancer

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Oh yes, and this has been on my mind a lot lately, Fredd's experiments with other Bs, and finding that they seemed to overdrive things and made his need for potassium much more intense.

Just checking the forum I see that he now reports:

Finally I discontinued the b1 and suddenly the need for Metafolin and potassium quieted down. . . . The active b12s and folate and carnitine don't DRIVE these cycles. Biotin, B1, B2 , B3 and maybe pantithine drive these cycles and determine how the deadlock quartet are used.

So I'm considering trying to move to straight methylfolate . . . but probably should do it in stages . . . not thrilled with idea of more changes though, when I've finally gotten to a full capsule of mfolate. Dividing up doses is really annoying after months and months of it.
for other reasons I have discontinued my Bcomplex, which had a high B1 content. Now manufacturing my own ( even more caps to eat at breakfast) thereby lowering the B1 amount. But it seems to have lowered my potassiumneeds. I was on 2 grams, yesterday on 1 1/2 gram and do not yet ( begin midday), feel the need to take it.

It is interesting.
 
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As far as I know 1 g of potassium bicarbonate contains 392 mg of elemental potassium, potassium citrate 360 mg, potassium chloride 521 mg per gram of compound. By the way, if you mix potassium bicarbonate with ascorbic acid powder in a glass of water, the bicarbonate fizzles away and potassium ascorbate is remaining in the solution.
So let me get this right, 1g of PB = 392mg of Elemental Potassium? Ive been taking 300mg of PB which seems like its not touching the sides which would make sense if my dosing is wrong?
 

Freddd

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So let me get this right, 1g of PB = 392mg of Elemental Potassium? Ive been taking 300mg of PB which seems like its not touching the sides which would make sense if my dosing is wrong?
Hi LozT,

I use powdered potassium gluconate in water. I find I needed somewhat more that 3500 mg a day. The K gluconate has about 350mg per half teaspoon. I use at least 10 half tsb, 2 tsb per 16 ounces.I drink it throughput the day. Sometimes it isn't that there is enough, it's that it lasts in serum for a short while and just doesn't stay available for long. When I had a sudden increase I add 350 mg (1/2 teaspoon in water or 3-4 tablets WITH 8 OUNCES water. If it takes 350 x 3 times I raise my base amount by 1050mg a day. Unless a person has a potassium sparing diuretic or damaged kidney's it is difficult for many people to accumulate potassium. I almost never can make it up to 4.3, beginning the comfort zone for me. Some fish gives a person 1200mg of potassium per serving. Bananas can exceed 500mg. K in food takes 14 hours to be absorbed to peak.
 
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I'll try and slog through the 14 pages, but for now a couple of questions:

I'm attempting to follow @Freddd 's protocol, based on sheclimber's notes and the list of symptoms posted in a few places. I'm currently using Metafolin tucked into my lower lip.

There is an instruction to take potassium away from folate by about 45 minutes - why, please? I would like to understand whether taking folate sublingually would change the need to space these two out.

Presumably the aim is to avoid hypokalemia symptoms - once the potassium dose is established as sufficient to reduce the symptoms, should that dosage then be taken before supplements the following day?

Thanks in advance!
 

Freddd

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I'll try and slog through the 14 pages, but for now a couple of questions:

I'm attempting to follow @Freddd 's protocol, based on sheclimber's notes and the list of symptoms posted in a few places. I'm currently using Metafolin tucked into my lower lip.

There is an instruction to take potassium away from folate by about 45 minutes - why, please? I would like to understand whether taking folate sublingually would change the need to space these two out.

Presumably the aim is to avoid hypokalemia symptoms - once the potassium dose is established as sufficient to reduce the symptoms, should that dosage then be taken before supplements the following day?

Thanks in advance!
Hi Tima,

Here is an up to date copy of the most recent versions of important items.

REFEEDING SYNDROME - A PROTOTYPE pragmatically based guide to survival and effective healing. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Version 1.1, 11/05/2018
I and some thousands of others have healed ourselves to various extents with this and perhaps other variations of B12/folate treatments. I can't speak for any doctors or their patients
Let's look at the nature of the problem. in 1948 Cyanocobalamin won the Nobel Prize as B12 In 1959 x-ray crystallography proved that the vast majority of cobalamins in beef liver extract (like the human body) was MeCbl and AdoCbl (Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin), the two immediately active forms of b12 in mammals and that the cyanocobalamin was generated by a lab mistake from those two active cobalamins. CyCbl is an inactive post waste production cleanup (Cyanide) form of cobalamin that is favored for excretion.
However, a small percentage of people were able to convert enough CyCbl to MeCbl-AdoCbl fast enough to feel a surge of energy from the cobalamin. The AMA declared all effects felt quickly were clearly placebo, said they would take actions to prevent doctors from giving people B12 because they claimed effectiveness from it. Those people who felt effects also sometimes had low potassium (hypokalemia) symptoms because of red blood cell production increase. These are people who were actually having healing going on for the only recognized b12 deficiency symptom, large red blood cells, and they would be denied B12 because of dangerous side effects.
By 1959 CyCbl was well established in research and the medical establishment. The tests that had to validate the genuine shortage of B12 (pernicious anemia basically) became the basis of giving B12, not effectiveness.
During the last 15 years that MeCbl and AdoCbl have been available many doctors have been floundering around because the research hasn't been done and some of them with considerable effectiveness, and they get in trouble for instance ,in the UK, which uses HyCbl as it's official defined B12.
All of the "standards of care" call for CyCbl and folic acid in the USA. So despite what my medical records say, that I have to have 3 x 10mg MeCbl injections daily and 24mg of Metafolin, the standards of care say nothing about that. So I could be given CyCbl and folic acid, putting me into severe deficiency starting in hours and possibly killing me with complete safety for the doctors becasue they are treating me according to the standards of care whereas they could get sued for giving me what I need in MeCbl, AdoCbl, Metafolin and L-carnitine fumarate. The "official" treatment for me is HyCbl (doesn't work for 1/3 of people like me as opposed to CyCbl with 0 to minus 100% effectiveness., folic acid (partially active for up to 50-70% or so of people but also having up minus 100% effectiveness and l-acetyl carnitine (ALCAR). This combo is the official treatment for my diagnosis and it works poorly to not at all for such people. This combination would put me into methyltrap and demyelination (like Sub Acute Combined Degeneration and MS for example) starting within 2 weeks.
I have cured myself of most all the symptoms of FMS, CFS, ME, congestive heart failure and many neurological symptoms are in remission. I had a couple of dozen other diagnoses during the decades, 100% of them useless for treatment and in retrospect of knowing what healed me, 100% wrong. Of the 100+ physicians I sought answers and treatment from during the decades, 100% of them were wrong. 100% of the treatments didn't work or were worse than nothing.
Severe b12 deficiencies, the first ones they are usually willing to diagnose, are the cause of excess homocysteine and excess Methyl Malonic Acid to be generated causing multi system/organ breakdowns of all kinds and death. By the time these are diagnosed the body is damaged and in failure mode.
I only look at symptoms as most of these diagnoses around these answers revolve around CyCbl (HyCbl) and folic acid or lots of drugs and don't work. Folic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl are 1/100 to 1/10,000 of the effectiveness of MeCbl, AdoCbl and l=methylfolate.
The following list is composed of my experiences, some symptoms I didn't have but were relieved for others and an initial international list of symptoms that responded to b12 treatment. I had over 200 symptoms myself.
Avoid glutathione, NAC, whey, Folic acid, folinic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl. They all have the ability to produce paradoxical folate deficiency or partial methylation block or healing by internal triage level or methyltrap and some other variations on ATP and methylation deficiencies.
This list has appeared in various forms on various threads Active B12 Protocol Basics at Phoenix Rising some years ago.
SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0
Copyright 2014, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, aka Davis Software Development, copied from original manuscript.

In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients. However, I have used no quotes from any source. This list of symptoms is derived from the an N=1000 questionnaire development. These are the symptoms that responded to the nutrients as listed. I did the 1000 symptoms histories myself. These are the some of the results from my 30,000 + hours of work for my
These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.
morning joint stiffness and pain
paleness
acid reflux
nausea
daily vomiting
standing with eyes closed, lose balance
hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
glove and stocking anesthesia
neuropathic bladder
unable to release bladder, mild to severe
unable to fully empty the bladder
fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
always feeling cold
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
sleep disorders
non restorative sleep
Night terrors
Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
Sleep paralysis
alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
alterations and loss of taste
taste hallucinations
smell hallucinations
sound hallucinations
visual hallucinations
alterations and loss of smell
loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
optic atrophy
centrocecal scotomata
hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
burning muscle pain
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
sore burning tongue

This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.
These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
Bursitis
stomach not emptying
frequent vomiting
acid regurgitation
dyspepsia
flatulence
altered bowel habits
abdominal pain
loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
nutrient specific anorexia
intermittent constipation
intermittent diarrhea
irritable bowel syndrome
sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
anorexia
Bulimia
Hypersensitivity to touch
Hypersensitivity to odors
Hypersensitivity to tastes
Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
burning bladder (no UTI)
painful urgency (no UTI)
burning urethra (no UTI)
Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
elevated LDH
big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
platelet dysfunction, low count
white cell changes, low count
hyper segmented neutrophils
headaches
inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
asthma
chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
chronic sinus congestion
dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
chronic infections, many varieties possible
Seborrhic dermatitis
dandruff
eczema
dermatitis
skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
poor hair condition
thin nails
transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
mouth sensitive to hot and cold
sore burning tongue
beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
teeth sensitive to hot and cold
canker sores
with p5p added
Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher
These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
impaired white blood cell response
poor resistance to infections
easy bruising
pronounced anemia
macrocytic anemia
megablastic anemia
pernicious anemia
decreased blood clotting
MCV > 93 first warning,
MCV > 97 alert
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem
Plus Vitamin E
Child with neural tube defects
mother of child with neural tube defect
These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
lack of dreaming
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
macrocytic anemia
metallic taste in mouth
Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
loss of orgasmic intensity
unsatisfying orgasms
inability to orgasm
loss and/or change of genital sensations
burning genital skin sensation
unable to feel aroused
numb genital skin
low sex hormones
MEN
In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

low testosterone men
In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
erectile dysfunction men
In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
low sperm count
poor sperm motility
Poor sperm quality
no sperm
WOMEN
In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

low testosterone
low estrogen
In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
post partum depression
post partum psychosis
In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
Frequent miscarriage
In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
False positive pap smears, defective cells
menstrual symptoms
These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils

Elevated CSF Hcy
Low CSF cobalamin
limbs feel stiff
Drowsy
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
Clumsiness
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin
Slow to adapt to night vision
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF
Difficulty in word finding
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils
Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
demyelinated areas on nerves
subacute combined degeneration
axonal degeneration of spinal cord
unsteadiness of gait
ataxic gait, particularly in dark
positive Romberg
positive Lhermittes
Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
Loss of sense of joint position
sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
sudden "ice pick" pain
decreased reflexes
brisk reflexes
Foot Drop
tripping over toes
injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
general feeling of weakness



12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.
These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items
L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl

weight loss involuntary
muscular atrophy
exercise does not build muscle
L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl
weight gain, watery fat
edema
L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin
mild to extremely severe fatigue
continuous extremely severe fatigue
easy fatigability
severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
weakness
muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS
AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
accumulating muscle pains following exertion
sore muscles throughout body
lack of muscle recovery after exercise
High urinary MMA
AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin
congestive heart failure
Elevated CSF MMA
Elevated uMMA
MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin
shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
heart palpitations
MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
weak pulse
MeCbl - AdoCbl
Confusion
Disorientation
Difficulty in word finding
MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin
irritable
depression
SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
mental slowing
personality changes
chronic malaise
poor concentration
moodiness
tiredness
mood swings
memory loss
listlessness
impaired connection to others
mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
dizziness - even unable to walk
Vertigo
MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
Alzheimer's
delirium
dementia
paranoia
delusions
hallucinations - multisensory
anxiety or tension
nervousness
mania
Widespread pain throughout body
A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first
Following are the groups of induced deficiency symptoms when starting with the Deadlock Quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-carnitine fumarate).
Version 2.42 11/06/2018 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
Copyright 2018, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, copied from original manuscript.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME.
This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient with normally feeling or seeing the changes within minutes to hours. From MecBL I had over 30 symptoms respond in the first few hours with blow my socks off intensity with neurological startup and potassium deficiency on the 3rd day along with increasing folate deficiencies that took years to figure out. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return that can also indicate a developing deficiency that started hindering cell formation.​


Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure, intense sudden dizzy spells correctable potentially in minutes with water with potassium gluconate for instance.
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.​


Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation​


Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue​


Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anything else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious:
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.
High MCV, > 93, persistent and resistant to MeCbl and B6 and/P5P. The warning about too much folate causing subacute combined degeneration which kept folic acid to a max of 800 mcg for decades becasue large folate doses can lower MCV without MeCbl. There is a long history to this.​


Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.​


Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests. Well after all other observable copper deficiency symptoms showed up, a lower value as copper continued to fall, MCV suddenly went over 100 after it had fallen to
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone​


Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.​


Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.
Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects
Formation of bacterial films
Runaway tooth decay,
vaginal bacterial films
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth
15 Surprising Benefits of Boron
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.​


Group 9 - Vanadium insufficiency
Deficiency of vanadium is poorly known or recognized. It affects tissue permeability like insulin.
vanadium insufficiency can cause (allow?) rising AIC
vanadium insufficiency allows the liver to make more cholesterol​


Group 10 - Lithium insufficiency Non ionizing forms, small micronutrient doses
Lithium allows better permeability of B12 in nervous system membranes. Many people appear to have trouble affecting some B12 deficiency symptoms with B12 even poor sleep (B12 insufficiency sleep disorder it looks like), poor B12 absorption.​


Group 11 - Iodine insufficiency, especially needed for those who don't eat iodized table salt and/or seafood.​


Group 12 - L-carnitine XXXXX, That can be L-carnitine tartrate, L-C Fumarate, L-C freebase, ALCAR and others but usually works only one kind at a time.
neuromuscular pain, feeling of growing inflammation, fatigue, mood changes, sleep problems. These are quick occuring symptoms and they can sprwead to the complete 4 way deadlock over time.​


It appears that for most people in this refeeding situation many may respond to only one form of l-carnitine, initially fumarate or ALCAR and sometimes also including a freebase form. However, as the deficienciencies change, the pathways appear to change and the carinitne that worked so well no longer does and the form is some entirely different one, like tartrate or some other variation. A person may need to trial half a dozen forms. A response is usually clear the first day or occasionally several days with micro doses and titration. And it can change based on what else is corrected.​