ME/CFS for 18 years, recently diagnosed with D-Lactic acidosis as cause of symptoms and illness.

Messages
90
Likes
118
@Avenger I don't know if this helps , but the allergist/immunologist I see told me no probiotics for the ibs . Hematologist said I have celiac . But apparently, probiotics are a problem and I have no idea why . If we have horrible gut health , don't we need probiotics?
Also, who knows how our guts went bad , many many reasons but I think your posts are very insightful regarding all the other symptoms . I have all of them.
How do we test for sibo and the new discovery ? Dr's in nyc laugh at these things but will
tell people they have ibs and celiac or even cancer . I'm sure cancer is in my near future.

I don't know why but the allergist reacted very strongly to probiotics and said no. Did you find out why it set you back ? How are you now ? Are your symptoms gone?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
11,743
Likes
20,175
To answer your question properly, someone like me, who has D-La, should be injected to see how I handle, presumably pure D-Lactic acid, and follow up this in finding out why, if i do or do not respond to D-Lactic acid.
Yes, that would be an interesting test.

As you say, it's possible that D-lactic acid may only cause problems in certain individuals who are predisposed to it.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
I firmly believe I have this also - I respond to herbal antibiotics very well. I've mentioned it to my go who basically laughed and said only people in near death have acidosis... how can I go about getting tested in the UK? Do you know?
I am sorry to hear that you are clearly being mistreated. This is due to sheer ignorance and lack of training!!!

Please read below, this should give you some confidence. If you have any gastointestinal problems including dyspepsia, reflux, bloating, abdominal pain or feeling sick at times then you may have Bacterial Overgrowth and possibly D-La. But any form of Overgrowth can make you unwell, and cause multiple symptoms depending on the Metabolites Produced. Bacterial Overgrowths are a hidden illness because Doctors have not had the training to understand these problems, which is indicated by your Consultant or Doctors comments.


Brain fogginess, gas and bloating: a link between SIBO, probiotics and metabolic acidosis
Clinical and Translational Gastroenterologyvolume 9, Article number: 162 (2018) | Download Citation
Abstract
Background
D-lactic acidosis is characterized by brain fogginess (BF) and elevated D-lactate and occurs in short bowel syndrome. Whether it occurs in patients with an intact gut and unexplained gas and bloating is unknown. We aimed to determine if BF, gas and bloating is associated with D-lactic acidosis and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO).
Methods
Patients with gas, bloating, BF, intact gut, and negative endoscopic and radiological tests, and those without BF were evaluated. SIBO was assessed with glucose breath test (GBT) and duodenal aspiration/culture. Metabolic assessments included urinary D-lactic acid and rblood L-lactic acid, and ammonia levels. Bowel symptoms, and gastrointestinal transit were assessed.
Results
Thirty patients with BF and 8 without BF were evaluated. Abdominal bloating, pain, distension and gas were the most severe symptoms and their prevalence was similar between groups. In BF group, all consumed probiotics. SIBO was more prevalent in BF than non-BF group (68 vs. 28%, p = 0.05). D-lactic acidosis was more prevalent in BF compared to non-BF group (77 vs. 25%, p = 0.006). BF was reproduced in 20/30 (66%) patients. Gastrointestinal transit was slow in 10/30 (33%) patients with BF and 2/8 (25%) without. Other metabolic tests were unremarkable. After discontinuation of probiotics and a course of antibiotics, BF resolved and gastrointestinal symptoms improved significantly (p = 0.005) in 23/30 (77%).
Conclusions
We describe a syndrome of BF, gas and bloating, possibly related to probiotic use, SIBO, and D-lactic acidosis in a cohort without short bowel. Patients with BF exhibited higher prevalence of SIBO and D-lactic acidosis. Symptoms improved with antibiotics and stopping probiotics. Clinicians should recognize and treat this condition.
Introduction
Abdominal bloating, gas and distension are common gastrointestinal symptoms that are caused by many conditions including carbohydrate intolerance and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO)1. Brain Fogginess (BF) describes a constellation of symptoms comprised of mental confusion, impaired judgment, poor short-term memory, and difficulty with concentration, which is often transient and disabling. Previously, similar symptoms, along with slurred speech and gait disturbances have been described in patients with short bowel syndrome2,3. These patients were found to have metabolic acidosis with elevated levels of D-lactic acid in the serum. Others have described brain fogginess in association with other chronic disorders including postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome4,5. Recently, probiotic use has been implicated in the production of D-lactic acidosis, both in short bowel syndrome patients and in the first 2 weeks of life in infants who were fed probiotic-containing formula6,7. Typically, D-lactic acidosis is caused by the fermentation of ingested carbohydrate by D-lactic producing bacteria such as lactobacillus and bifidobacterium in the bowel2,3.
In a preliminary report, we described seven patients who presented with both unexplained abdominal bloating and BF and who were consuming probiotics8. Whether there is a link between abdominal bloating, distention, gas, D-lactic acidosis, and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), and probiotic usage is not known. We examined whether small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), particularly with D-lactic acid producing bacteria may cause a syndrome of BF, gas, bloating, and neurocognitive symptoms.
Our aim was to evaluate a consecutive series of patients with unexplained BF, abdominal bloating and gas, for SIBO, using both duodenal aspirate and cultures, and a glucose breath test (GBT), and simultaneously assess for metabolic acidosis.
See full text; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6006167/



Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO)
Uncover the Cause of Unexplained Abdominal Symptoms with Breath Testing
SIBO is a common clinical condition and can develop in a variety of patient populations.
Genova's SIBO Profiles are non-invasive breath tests which capture exhaled hydrogen (H2) and methane (CH4) gases following patient ingestion of a lactulose solution to evaluate bacterial overgrowth of the
small intestine.
Clinicians have the option of a 2 or 3-hour SIBO assessment.
The 3-hour SIBO profile provides insight into gas levels over a longer period of time, and is recommended for patients with slower gastrointestinal transit or constipation.
When should testing for SIBO be considered?
Symptoms of SIBO are non-specific, encompassing abdominal pain/distention, diarrhea, and flatulence.
See text: https://www.gdx.net/product/bacterial-overgrowth-of-the-small-intestine-sibo-test#h2tab1




Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO)
Uncover the Cause of Unexplained Abdominal Symptoms with Breath Testing
SIBO is a common clinical condition and can develop in a variety of patient populations.
Genova's SIBO Profiles are non-invasive breath tests which capture exhaled hydrogen (H2) and methane (CH4) gases following patient ingestion of a lactulose solution to evaluate bacterial overgrowth of the
small intestine.
Clinicians have the option of a 2 or 3-hour SIBO assessment.
The 3-hour SIBO profile provides insight into gas levels over a longer period of time, and is recommended for patients with slower gastrointestinal transit or constipation.
When should testing for SIBO be considered?
Symptoms of SIBO are non-specific, encompassing abdominal pain/distention, diarrhea, and flatulence.
. . . .
see https://www.gdx.net/product/bacterial-overgrowth-of-the-small-intestine-sibo-test#h2tab1 for remainder of article.

Paul.
Dear Avenger,
Did you get the horrific PEM response when you were ill?
Hi Perrier, yes I had it very bad. I still get PEM, but not at the same level. I still have some bad energy days but I can handle them. I have included a report below that explains this in terms of D-La causing Mitochondrial Dysfunction as the root of our energy problems below.

Before diagnosis, even after very light activity I became really unwell as well as developing PEM. I have always pushed myself even when ill! On a few occasions I tried to repeat the same activity the next day after making a partial recovery and noticed that i became even worse. Repeating the same activity for 3 days (that is abnormal partial recovery in between) could put me in bed for weeks. It was not just about energy though, I felt dreadful, unbelievable pain and regular breathing difficulty after pushing myself (that was on a good day). During the worst periods I became very ill without doing anything and it was only the realization that antibiotics stopped the symptoms that saved me.

I came from a background of regular training since I was 16 and had kept fit all of my life until I fell ill in 1999. I thought at times that i could just push through it and force my body to work, which could set me back for weeks, bedridden and very ill.

I did not believe in Chronic Fatigue or ME despite being frequently diagnosed as such. But I was sure that i had an illness because it conformed to some rules, and my symptoms were always from the same list.

It was a shock to realize that this had all been Bacterial, but i can only really understand this in hindsight.

I had Mitochondrial Tests performed by Dr. Sarah Myhil which showed Mitochondrial abnormalities. I was draining an already depleted battery. Allowing it to charge a little and then damaging it further.

Sheedy et al., have shown that it is Mitochondrial Dysfunction at the root of the energy problems, which occurs in D-La.

Here is another corroborating report concerning D-La and Mitochondrial dysfunction (DLA=D-Lactic acidosis in this report).

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012; 9: 6.
Published online 2012 Feb 1. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-9-6
PMCID: PMC3292964
PMID: 22296683
D-Lactate altered mitochondrial energy production in rat brain and heart but not liver
Binbing Ling,1 Fei Peng,1 Jane Alcorn,1 Katharina Lohmann,2 Brian Bandy,1 and Gordon A Zello
1
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Go to:
Abstract
Background
Substantially elevated blood D-lactate (DLA) concentrations are associated with neurocardiac toxicity in humans and animals. The neurological symptoms are similar to inherited or acquired abnormalities of pyruvate metabolism. We hypothesized that DLA interferes with mitochondrial utilization of L-lactate and pyruvate in brain and heart.
Methods
Respiration rates in rat brain, heart and liver mitochondria were measured using DLA, LLA and pyruvate independently and in combination.
Results
In brain mitochondria, state 3 respiration was 53% and 75% lower with DLA as substrate when compared with LLA and pyruvate, respectively (p < 0.05). Similarly in heart mitochondria, state 3 respiration was 39% and 86% lower with DLA as substrate when compared with LLA or pyruvate, respectively (p < 0.05). However, state 3 respiration rates were similar between DLA, LLA and pyruvate in liver mitochondria. Combined incubation of DLA with LLA or pyruvate markedly impaired state 3 respiration rates in brain and heart mitochondria (p < 0.05) but not in liver mitochondria. DLA dehydrogenase activities were 61% and 51% lower in brain and heart mitochondria compared to liver, respectively, whereas LLA dehydrogenase activities were similar across all three tissues. An LDH inhibitor blocked state 3 respiration with LLA as substrate in all three tissues. A monocarboxylate transporter inhibitor blocked respiration with all three substrates.

Conclusions
DLA was a poor respiratory substrate in brain and heart mitochondria and inhibited LLA and pyruvate usage in these tissues. Further studies are warranted to evaluate whether these findings support, in part, the possible neurological and cardiac toxicity caused by high DLA levels.
See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3292964/# for remainder of article.

Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Yes, that would be an interesting test.

As you say, it's possible that D-lactic acid may only cause problems in certain individuals who are predisposed to it.
Or there are more dangerous metabolites involved that exist with D-La? Or another possibility is that some of us may be able to metabolize D-La but not the other metabolites? Or that there are other metabolites from other forms of Bacterial Overgrowth as yet unidentified that can cause serious illness in a similar manner, developing neurotoxicity in other patients. There may be a range of variants causing similar problems. Whether mine is purely D-La could be verified by injecting D-La. This badly needs researching.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
11,743
Likes
20,175
More research would be good. But I think the fact that D-lactic acid injections do not cause ME/CFS-like symptoms in healthy people suggests that, in general, D-lactic acid cannot be a cause of ME/CFS on its own. But as you say, it may cause ME/CFS in certain susceptible individuals.

Or alternatively D-lactic acid might create issues once ME/CFS patients have developed mitochondrial dysfunction from other causes (such as viral causes); maybe once such mitochondrial problems develop, then possibly D-lactic acid becomes harder for the body to deal with. If you look at Myhill et al's papers, they show clear evidence of mitochondrial and energy metabolism dysfunction in ME/CFS.
 
Last edited:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Dear Hip, I was diagnosed with mitochondrial dysfunction by Dr. Myhill, which is related to D-La. In the rat studies D-La has been found to interfere with the mitochondrial utilization of L-Lactate and Pyruvate in Brain and Heart.

Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
@Avenger I don't know if this helps , but the allergist/immunologist I see told me no probiotics for the ibs . Hematologist said I have celiac . But apparently, probiotics are a problem and I have no idea why . If we have horrible gut health , don't we need probiotics?
Also, who knows how our guts went bad , many many reasons but I think your posts are very insightful regarding all the other symptoms . I have all of them.
How do we test for sibo and the new discovery ? Dr's in nyc laugh at these things but will
tell people they have ibs and celiac or even cancer . I'm sure cancer is in my near future.

I don't know why but the allergist reacted very strongly to probiotics and said no. Did you find out why it set you back ? How are you now ? Are your symptoms gone?
Hi, Probiotics are a problem because there is controversy in their use. There are reports that the use of D-Lactic producing Bacteria in Probiotics which were also used by the NHS may have caused the problems or even caused Bacterial Overgrowth.

There are also many reports saying that this is all nonsense. The NHS has take a stance to say that there is no evidence of benefit (which may be to contain any possibility of blame), which again is crazy. The correct Probiotics and blends need to be determined first of all as safe.

There are a number of Reports concerning the use of Probiotics to reverse Gastrointestinal illness since early last century.

Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (LGG) is one of the best-studied probiotic bacteria in clinical trials for treating and/or preventing several intestinal disorders, including inflammatory bowel diseases and diarrhea.

Guess where you will find the use of Lactobacillus rhamnosus?, on Dr. Myhill's site. She sells kits to grow your own. She has always been light years ahead of other Doctors concerning Gut Science.

Please go to her site and read what she has to say concerning SIBO and Probiotics and also D-Lactic acidosis if you have very bad or neurological symptoms. She also does some UTube videos fully explaining.

My own belief is that and Bacterial Overgrowth act as an Infection and so the Flu like or Infection symptoms and weakness and fatigue are caused by the Metabolites produced causing mitochondrial dysfunction. But Doctors cannot understand this as an infection because there is no raise in temperature, because the Bacteria involved stay within the Gut as Overgrowth and do not enter the Blood Stream to cause any raise in temperature. It is the Metabolites that are produced that cause illness.

Message to Perrier below; This will help explain if you have Bacterial Overgrowth. It is important to get it investigated by a Consultant Gastroenterologist. Not all Gastro are trained to fully understand and very few to understand D-La. I was recently sent to one who told me 'I have never heard of D-Lactic acidosis, I will google that'. Be aware that you must ask for Gastro's who specialize.

Hi Perrier, sorry to hear that your daughter is so bad, they have obviously checked for everything else as they had with me? I had a lot of investigations 18 years ago, which virtually proved negative. Has she been checked for Lyme disease etc?

But whatever I tell you, you must check with your own Doctor to make sure that I am not suggesting anything counter productive or that is contraindicated by any other condition that will make your daughter worse! Please also check Dr. Sarah Myhill's website (she uses a version called a Paleo Diet). She gives free online video's with advice on Utube for Bacterial Overgrowth (she is one of the heroes of ME/CFS).

The first thing is does your daughter have gut problems, which correlate with dysbiosis or bacterial overgrowth?;

eg. abdominal pain, distension or discomfort, dyspepsia, reflux, bloating and burping up (acid or food), gas, or feeling or being sick, diarrhea, constipation or weight loss (you can have weight loss or gain with D-Lactic acidosis). These may not be as bad as the other symptoms that she is experiencing that are making her unwell, abnormally fatigued, weak or in pain (with other seemingly bizarre symptoms).


If so; getting a diagnosis of Bacterial Overgrowth from a Consultant Gastroenterologist is the first step (I will tell you how I treated D-La later). You need to ask for Hydrogen and Methane breath test given with Sugar to prove that these gasses are being created in the Small Intestine by Overgrowth. You also need to ask for a Fecal Assay to check which Bacteria are causing the problem. Fecal Elastase (to check Pancreatic Function/Insufficiency affecting or causing Overgrowth), and C Reactive protein to check for Gastrointestinal Inflammation (which can be caused by the metabolites produced by Bacterial Overgrowth and cause further mucosal damage including Autoimmune disease or dysfunction causing other equally serious problems).

A D-Lactic assay if suspected can be performed by your local Microbiology (if they cannot do this they must separate out the plasma within one hour of taking the blood, possibly freezing it, and send it to somewhere that can run this test. Or Blood Gasses including anion gap should be performed if your daughter is extremely unwell or has breathing difficulty. Ask for D as well as L Lactate).

You have to remember that Bacterial Overgrowth is always secondary to another underlying problem, even poor motility (due to the use of analgesics. Diabetes) etc.

Secondly does she have neurological symptoms, as well as fatigue and weakness?;

D-Lactic acidosis is one form of Bacterial Overgrowth and more complex because there is a lot of controversy (including that it may have been started by probiotics, antibiotics and even acid suppressants or proton pump inhibitors, for things like Helico-bacter infections which approximately 50% of the population will have at some point).

Whether Bacterial Overgrowth or D-Lactic acidosis, you have to starve the Bacteria of their ability to produce poisons or neurotoxins, because of where they are abnormally fermented in the Small Intestine. Dr. Myhill recommends a Paleo Diet for Bacterial Overgrowth. Please see her video and read her page on fermenting gut and bacterial overgrowth. There is also a FODMAP diet and you may have to experiment. But significantly lowering Carbohydrates and Simple sugars is at the heart of these diets.

The recommended D-Lactic diet is Low Carbohydrate, this means 10% max, But;

To properly verify at home, you need to cut out all Carbohydrates and Sugars altogether for a week and see if she feels better. Eating meats , fish, poultry, hard cheese, eggs. Very little fruit such as a handful of blueberries. Salad, low Carbs, Veg and Tomatoes. Breakfast of Bacon and Eggs, Tomato, Mushrooms. Low Carb Yoghurt (Milk and Yogurt contain lactose which is a Sugar and may also need to be cut out or changed for a non lactose Milk Substitute, but I have continued with these). The Low Carb Diet is also an optimum diet to live on for Diabetes and for general health, but you must check with your Doctor first.

The trial is to cut out Carbs and Sugars altogether and derive energy from Meats and Fats with selected salad and vegetables.

NO; Pasta, Wheat, Rice, Potatoes, Cereals, Cakes, Bread, etc. These ferment to different metabolites including D-Lactate depending upon the Bacteria.

(your daughter may be able to have up to 10% Carbs later, but will have to cut out the above if she responds well).

Bacteria thrives on Carbohydrates and Sugars, but not Fats, so fat and meats are used for energy instead of Carbohydrates. Any Carbs will feed the Bacteria, so for the test No Carbs or Sugars (blueberries in small amounts should be OK and possibly a handful of low Carb nuts). Later on a very low Carbohydrate diet, your body may cope with low levels of D-Lactic acid and other metabolites.

Don't expect a miracle the next day! With D-Lactic symptoms or Bacterial Overgrowth It may take 3 days to stop the symptoms, 4 at the worst. It seems like a lifetime. You have to adhere to the diet as though your life depends upon it. There should be no harm caused by such a diet, but because your daughter is very unwell you must OK this with her Doctor first in case she has a condition requiring Carbohydrates etc. She could have a number of underlying conditions causing Bacterial Overgrowth.

Just lowering Carbohydrates helped with other ME/CFS problems, I also had periodic Hypoglycemia which may have been due to the Bacteria competing for my food or due to the effects of the neurotoxin at the mitochondrial level, where D-Lactic acid depletes the transfer of energy and use of available glucose, causing severe weakness and fatigue during exacerbations (which for me could greatly vary and be short and extreme, or be prolonged and severe and fluctuate for months with intermittent remissions).

Using Antibiotics such as Metronidazole would stop my symptoms for months at first, but the Overgrowth always came back. Metronidazole is a known Antibiotic for D-La (I did not respond well to Rifaximin or Neomycin), but this all depends upon the Bacteria involved. If your daughter responds to Antibiotics is also a clue.

Metronidazole is also a very good anti-inflammatory drug.

I can only wish you the best and pray that she will get better.


Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
@Avenger I strongly suspect that I have somatization on my medical record or something similar. How do you go about getting your medical record? Ask the GP?
Hi Sb4, I have just found something interesting that may be of interest to you.

I wanted to understand why I have Gastroparesis when I eat Carbohydrate and Sugar Meals. Do you suffer from fast or slowed transit with your Gastrointestinal problems?

Methane production by certain Bacteria in SIBO can cause Gastroparesis and slowed motility and constipation. Methane producing Bacteria can live on Hydrogen producing Bacteria. There may be a number of different Bacteria involved. Gastroparesis is caused by SIBO. Hydrogen producing Bacteria cause fast transit.

J Neurogastroenterol Motil. 2014 Jan; 20(1): 31–40.
Published online 2013 Dec 30. doi: 10.5056/jnm.2014.20.1.31
PMCID: PMC3895606
PMID: 24466443

Methanogens, Methane and Gastrointestinal Motility
Konstantinos Triantafyllou,1,2 Christopher Chang,1 and Mark Pimentel
1
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Go to:
Abstract
Anaerobic fermentation of the undigested polysaccharide fraction of carbohydrates produces hydrogen in the intestine which is the substrate for methane production by intestinal methanogens. Hydrogen and methane are excreted in the flatus and in breath giving the opportunity to indirectly measure their production using breath testing. Although methane is detected in 30%-50% of the healthy adult population worldwide, its production has been epidemiologically and clinically associated with constipation related diseases, like constipation predominant irritable bowel syndrome and chronic constipation. While a causative relation is not proven yet, there is strong evidence from animal studies that methane delays intestinal transit, possibly acting as a neuromuscular transmitter. This evidence is further supported by the universal finding that methane production (measured by breath test) is associated with delayed transit time in clinical studies. There is also preliminary evidence that antibiotic reduction of methanogens (as evidenced by reduced methane production) predicts the clinical response in terms of symptomatic improvement in patients with constipation predominant irritable bowel syndrome. However, we have not identified yet the mechanism of action of methane on intestinal motility, and since methane production does not account for all constipation associated cases, there is need for high quality clinical trials to examine methane as a biomarker for the diagnosis or as a biomarker that predicts antibiotic treatment response in patients with constipation related disorders.
Keywords: Constipation, Gastroparesis, Irritable bowel syndrome, Methane, Methanococcus
Go to:
Introduction

Gastroparesis
Gastroparesis symptoms include postprandial fullness, early satiety, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting and bloating without obstruction. It may be idiopathic or secondary to diabetes mellitus, gastric-surgical procedures and opioid consumption etc.78 Interestingly, while gastric emptying is delayed, gastroparesis symptoms do not correlate well with the degree of the delay assessed by scintigraphy, suggesting that other factors may contribute to the development of symptoms.79
Although the evidence is still poor to reach firm conclusions, we report herein the only two available studies that have evaluated methane production in gastroparesis patients. SIBO has been detected by positive glucose methane breath testing in 27% of 50 gastroparesis patients complaining mainly about abdominal pain and bloating.80 In a larger study evaluating 201 patients with symptom severity questionnaire, scintigraphic gastric emptying measurement and lactulose breath testing, only 6 (3%) patients had positive methane breath test (breath methane increase of > 20 ppm above baseline by 90 minutes) and there was no relation of methane positivity to gastric emptying time and severity of symptoms.81
. . . .
Go to:
Conclusions
Methane is a unique gas produced in strict anaerobic conditions by intestinal methanogens that metabolize H2, one of the end products of bacterial fermentation. Although thought of as an inert gas, there is evidence from translational medicine that methane acts like a neuromuscular transmitter resulting in reduced propagation of the peristaltic movement in the intestine. This evidence is further supported by the universal finding in physiological studies that CH4production (measured by breath testing) delays transit time and by clinical studies showing a relationship between methane status on breath testing with delayed transit associated conditions like constipation predominant IBS and chronic constipation. There is also preliminary evidence that antibiotic treatment results in improvement of symptoms in a certain proportion of patients suffering from these disorders in a fashion related to its ability to eradicate methane. However, methane is also detected in healthy individuals and all constipation patients and symptoms are not associated with high methane production, meaning that there is plenty of room for research to identify the mechanism of action of methane on intestinal motility before recommending methane as a biomarker for the diagnosis of constipation related disorders or as a biomarker for selecting patients who may benefit from antibiotic eradication of methane.
See text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895606/#


Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
887
Likes
1,135
Location
United Kingdom
@Avenger Thanks Paul. It is interesting but I am more incline to believe that my gastroparesis is caused directly by autonomic dysfunction, whether that is secondary to the gut I don't know. I have dry mouth, can't relax, and don't produce much gas which makes me think this. I will keep this in the back of my mind however.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Hi sb4,
I was also diagnosed with Autonomic Dysfunction. All of this was related to D-La!

I was diagnosed with Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Autonomic Dysfunction.

But for me Gastroparesis stops when I stop using Carbohydrates and will return at times with only one meal.

Either Autonomic Dysfunction or Hydrogen and Methane can affect Motility and Gastroparesis. They are part of D-La caused by Bacterial Overgrowth.

Undeniably complex and difficult to pin down exactly, but with me there is a direct relationship, because Gastroparesis, dyspepsia, reflux and pain all start when I use Carbohydratres and Sugars. I am also knocked out after eating these foods during digestion which must now be difficult to digest such foods.

There is a chain of abnormality which stops when I stop using Carbs.


Paul.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
887
Likes
1,135
Location
United Kingdom
@Avenger For me it is is somewhat opposite. My gastroparesis is better with carbs although general POTS is worse, and worse with fat / protein. This also goes against this idea. I do think perhaps the gut flora is causing immune/nervous system abnormalities.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Hi sb4, that may be because you develop hydrogen which increases motility.

You can develop Hydrogen or Methane producing Bacteria which speed up or slow motility and transit. I can only speak from the perspective of slowed transit and possibly methane. There may be a number of variants causing different problems.

I hope that you can get to the bottom of yours.

Paul.
 
Messages
90
Likes
118
@Avenger I think I forgot rhe post button .
Thank you for teaching us about the d lactic acidosis . I mentioned it to a dr and he said but nothing in your labs point to that . not sure what labs would be needed but I had the regular stuff with me CBC .

I don't want to mess up Howard's thread . I know you've explained this well before . I'm going to return to the starvation diet , I can't take what food is doing but it's worsening over time anyway .

Thsbk
You for your humanitarian work , it really is
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Hi fredman7,
having to starve yourself is one of the classic signs of D-La, because eating certain foods is the cause of illness. Have you tried the 0% Carbs and Sugars for a week or FODMAP Diet? I really feel for you after what I went through.

There is nothing to indicate in normal investigations; unless you have been checked for Bacterial Overgrowth/Hydrogen/Methane Breath Test, D-Lactic acid levels or Blood Gasses/Anion Gap when ill and C-Reactive Protein (inflammation in the Gut). If these have not been done then you have not been investigated and your Doctor has no right to make such ignorant statements. Normal Tests will not show this problem which is one of the reasons that it has remained hidden so long in a cloud of ignorance, poor thinking and lack of insight (perhaps Cognitive Behavioral Therapy should be given to Doctors).

What investigations has your Doctor done so far?

To be honest, the thought of all of the unnecessary pain and suffering being made worse by ignorance and discrimination that I have also experienced makes me want to cry!!!


All I can do is to fight on and send you all some of my hope and a little love! Trust your own instincts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Messages
90
Likes
118
@Avenger thank you so much for this. You are correct, none of those tests have been performed . I had a stool sample test a few years ago, nothing there but not many tests but things like c diff were negative.

I had a hard time asking about sibo, like I was asking to be taken to outer space . I did find a GI dr at Mayo who will be testing for sibo using fluid from the scope, looking at mast cells and an endoscopy and colonoscopy. He also wants to do imaging. How can I ask him to look
Into d lactic ? Are there any tests at all?

I did cut sugar for a year but not carbs completely . Anything I eat , I turn into an angry drunk and then pass out . Also, the strangest thing is that sometimes I crave alcohol ! I don't drink at all but it's like I'm actually drunk . I want to eat pizza and drink a beer , that's not me , I don't like bad food and don't drink . Of course I enjoyed pizza in the past and fries but once in a blue moon . I'm more hungry than ever now ! Very strange

Yes, dr's most definitely need cognitive behavioral therapy , the majority are just terrible and hate people .

I really appreciate all the information, I wouldn't have known to ask about sibo. When the dr suggested it , I felt good about him , no one else ever mentioned it . No one gave me anything to ease the daily loose stool .

It's so strange the amount of damage this can cause . Looking back, I've reacted poorly to food for many years , outbursts . I had to stop drinking coffee as I was happy for an hour then angry then pass out . But food , would be upset for no reason and I would get so tired but I would fight it off whigb caused more anger , I didn't allow myself to sleep , always had to be accomplishing something ... yeah , now look

But I can't believe how long this has been going on . I remember I would go to the gym then fall asleep, I had bloating and cramps and all food seemed to make me ill but 15 years ago , they said all was fine , just ibs and nothing could be done . I took Chinese herbs and did acupuncture and it got better . But this thing progresses . My
body is done with food . I can't figure out why I get mentally disoriented after eating then comatose . I was never a big sleeper , I could never relax enough to sleep, I had insomnia ! Now I can't keep my eyes open . In fact , I pass out at the GI's office , that was embarrassing. I ate something small between appointments and it did me in .

Did you get very bad fatigue ? I guess you did otherwise you wouldn't have been so sick ! It's like someone drugged me but i can't get out of it , I'm stuck inside .
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
191
Hi, going to Hospital in a minute with collapsed disc/Nerve root compression, but will answer when back.

Paul.
 
Messages
90
Likes
118
@Avenger I'm really sorry , I hope you are better . Did they help you ? Be careful with injections , in sure you know already
Let us know when you can how you are doing