Rich Vank's Simplified Methylation Protocol Poll

I have tried Rich Vanks Simplified Methylation Protocol with the following results:

  • I am in effective remission (80%+)

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Major Improvement

    Votes: 20 22.7%
  • Minor improvement

    Votes: 25 28.4%
  • No change

    Votes: 25 28.4%
  • Minor crash

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Moderate crash

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Major crash

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Unable to continue protocol

    Votes: 13 14.8%

  • Total voters
    88

richvank

Senior Member
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Hi Rich - TY for your analysis.

***Hi, Jeffrez. You're welcome.

My alt doc is in MA, I'm going in a couple weeks, think I'll see if they can order & run the methylation panel from there. I assume the results will be faster that way than waiting for everything to go to Europe and back?

***Probably so.

Is any special test kit required, or can we just send standard blood draws from MA and have HD take care of it using those & a credit card #?

***Yes, there's a special kit. The vials have a proprietary combination of enzyme blockers in them, which is what preserves glutathione from all becoming oxidized after it is taken out of the body.

In the meantime, think I will reduce mb12 even more, down to around 1mg, with the intent of switching over to hydroxy as soon as I can order and receive that. Without the sublingual mb12, my b12 was almost totally wiped out, but I was also on the omeprazole at that time, so it's hard to say if it's from intrinsic factor deficiency or b/c of the drug. Either way, think I feel more comfortable with hydroxy at this point, as the IVs I had with mb12 seemed to cause side effects, the first time even lasting for a couple weeks. The hydroxy IVs by contrast have been fine.

***O.K.

I didn't think folate conversion was an issue for me, b/c I get the same super low heart rate and depression symptoms both from methylfolate and standard folic acid. But maybe there is some issue there slowing down conversion, which I suppose is very hard to say w/out the meth panel. Otoh, I don't seem to get those symptoms from the folate in the B-right, strangely enough, which is why I was taking that - to at least be getting some supplemental folate. If it's not converting though, or converting too slowly to be effective, I guess it's just counterproductive at this point, and I should dump the B-right for one of the non-folate B-complexes and start micro-dosing the methylfolate.

Does all that sound right, or at least reasonable? : P

***I think it does.

Was hoping to avoid the methylation panel b/c of the expense, but it might be better to just put all guesswork aside and know for sure. Can you say with certainty that there would be distinct advantages from a treatment standpoint from having the test, as opposed to just trial and error and seeing what works clinically, and with standard labs guiding me as far as the folate & b12 levels?

***I think it's best to know what you're dealing with. The standard blood serum tests for folate and B12 are not very useful in ME/CFS.

Btw, I also have low CD8, high EBV, and some other infections - mycoplasma pneumoniae, etc. Think we're going to work on treating those at my next visit, as I'm sure those are playing into this presumed GSH-depletion problem, also.

***I think you're right about that. It looks to me now that it is necessary to do methylation treatment as well as going after the infections specifically.

***I hope this works out well for you.

***Best regards,

***Rich
 

jimells

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I'm so sorry that our friend Rich has left us. Since this thread is still open, I'd like to post my results to-date with the SMP.

I started the supplements almost a month ago, starting with the vitamin (1/4 tablet) and slowly adding the others and then increasing the doses. I'm currently taking 1 vitamin tablet, for the other supplements I'm on the full dose recommended by Rich. In addtion to Rich's protocol, I started Co Q10 in early summer. After about 3 months the migraines became milder and fewer, but I still experienced the PEM after just tiny amounts of activity. In September I added an Astragalus & Ligustrum combination pill. It seemed to help some.

After a few weeks on the SMP I have experienced a dramatic improvement in the illness. I signed a contract for a small project on Monday, so I'm back in the software business, after five years of barely doing any of that kind of work. I've been working on firewood 1/2 to 1 hour a day, nearly every day, so I will actually have heat this winter. In September I had no idea how I was going to heat my house. A few days ago I opened my saxophone case, for the first time in over six months, and have played a few minutes each day. It will be some time yet before I can go back to the bands I used to play in, but at least I'm headed in the right direction.

I'm nowhere near 100%, even so I feel like I've woken from the dead, and there is the possibility that I might be able to make a living again, instead of depending on my 76 year old mom on Social Security to pay my electric bill. I have had remissions before, once for several months, so my attitude is one of 'cautious optimism'. For as long as it lasts, I will continue to do as much as I can without triggering a crash.

For me, 'working on firewood' means using a chainsaw, splitting wood by axe and maul, throwing it into the basement, and stacking it. The fact that I can do this work, for short periods of time, without muscle soreness, after months and months of barely getting off the couch, really puts the boot to the idea that we all suffer from 'deconditioning' (although some probably do) and 'laziness'. I doubt the yahoos promoting that garbage even know how to hold an axe (or any other tool), much less use one to split firewood (or do anything useful).

It's really disturbing to think that Medicaid spent boatloads of money on useless tests and useless doctors, as I continued to get worse, when it appears at this moment that what I needed was a handful of supplements that have cost about $200 so far.

I hope that my post will encourage other folks to study Rich's protocol and consider giving it a go. It's a lot cheaper than those damn 'specialists' and their horrible pharmaceuticals.
 

Mimi

Senior Member
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Jimells, I am so glad to hear that. I, too, found I was enough improved to go after a job in the software industry. To protect my energy, I turned down a possible interview at Google and happily took a university job instead.

I start on Monday and I really don't know if I'll be able to handle it. But I feel so blessed and guided in finding this job that I am going to trust that somehow it will all work out.

I wish the same to you - continued recovery and ability to work and play a little on the side. I'm sure Rich VanK would have been very gratified to hear your news.
 

*GG*

senior member
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Jim, please don't over exert yourself. I did that kind of work as a kid and young man, it's pretty laborious. It will be good test of your recovery, just try to listen to your body. I know winter is coming, and you probably don't want to freeze to death, and oil is very expensive compared to years ago. I am living paycheck to paycheck, my fuel bill is really hurting me.

GG
 

jimells

Senior Member
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Jim, please don't over exert yourself.
GG, thanks for your concern. I'm very careful not to over exert - I'm all too familiar with the consequences. I nearly have enough wood in the basement to get through the winter, and I'll be glad to be done with it for a while. More problematic is attempting to arrange for transportation to town to get groceries or see the lawyer. At home, when I get tired I can stop and lay down. Halfway through a 2 hour appointment with the lawyer on Wednesday, I didn't have the option of crashing on a couch. Plus I still had to get to the grocery store, then back home. Waaay too much activity for one day.

I heard recently that Maine has cut its use of home-heating fuel oil in half in the past few years. Wood pellet stoves and furnaces are very popular in my area. They are a good option until the power goes out and they only burn pellets. My furnace will burn any form of wood, including cut-up pallets, although I hate dealing with the nails. It's quite frightening to see how little oil one gets for $200.

I would be galled to live in the shadow of the giant radioactive waste site known as Seabrook (which I fought against in the '70s) and still have to buy fuel oil. Electricity cheap enough to heat with could partially mitigate the huge risk of living near that white elephant.

mimi, I'm fortunate in that I don't have the stress of hunting for work and attempting to sell myself. The client is desparate for me to complete the project, as it means they won't have to spend $25,000 on a stand-alone solution that probably won't play nice with their existing systems. Good luck with your new job. I hope the university treats you well.
 

Anteah

Senior Member
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Las Vegas, Nevada
I'm so sorry that our friend Rich has left us. Since this thread is still open, I'd like to post my results to-date with the SMP.

I started the supplements almost a month ago, starting with the vitamin (1/4 tablet) and slowly adding the others and then increasing the doses. I'm currently taking 1 vitamin tablet, for the other supplements I'm on the full dose recommended by Rich. In addtion to Rich's protocol, I started Co Q10 in early summer. After about 3 months the migraines became milder and fewer, but I still experienced the PEM after just tiny amounts of activity. In September I added an Astragalus & Ligustrum combination pill. It seemed to help some.

After a few weeks on the SMP I have experienced a dramatic improvement in the illness. I signed a contract for a small project on Monday, so I'm back in the software business, after five years of barely doing any of that kind of work. I've been working on firewood 1/2 to 1 hour a day, nearly every day, so I will actually have heat this winter. In September I had no idea how I was going to heat my house. A few days ago I opened my saxophone case, for the first time in over six months, and have played a few minutes each day. It will be some time yet before I can go back to the bands I used to play in, but at least I'm headed in the right direction.

I'm nowhere near 100%, even so I feel like I've woken from the dead, and there is the possibility that I might be able to make a living again, instead of depending on my 76 year old mom on Social Security to pay my electric bill. I have had remissions before, once for several months, so my attitude is one of 'cautious optimism'. For as long as it lasts, I will continue to do as much as I can without triggering a crash.

For me, 'working on firewood' means using a chainsaw, splitting wood by axe and maul, throwing it into the basement, and stacking it. The fact that I can do this work, for short periods of time, without muscle soreness, after months and months of barely getting off the couch, really puts the boot to the idea that we all suffer from 'deconditioning' (although some probably do) and 'laziness'. I doubt the yahoos promoting that garbage even know how to hold an axe (or any other tool), much less use one to split firewood (or do anything useful).

It's really disturbing to think that Medicaid spent boatloads of money on useless tests and useless doctors, as I continued to get worse, when it appears at this moment that what I needed was a handful of supplements that have cost about $200 so far.

I hope that my post will encourage other folks to study Rich's protocol and consider giving it a go. It's a lot cheaper than those damn 'specialists' and their horrible pharmaceuticals.

This post has truly warmed my heart! I am so glad that you are doing better!!! Methylation protocol (+some this and thats) does really seem to do it! This is wonderful that you found it working for you so well. I just discovered it 6 months ago and same here - a different person! How great to finally be able to find "the answer"!
 

jimells

Senior Member
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what is Astragalus & Ligustrum ?
It's a Chinese herbal supplement. Astragalus may have some anti-viral properties, and maybe does something to the immune system. I haven't been able to find out much about the ligustrum. The supplement has some other 'stuff' too.

Unfortunately my current remission peaked right around Thanksgiving, I'm not doing nearly as well right now, but still much better than over the summer. I did manage to cut just about enough firewood before getting worse, so that was a huge help. The migraines are still much improved, and I'm still able to work on computer software a few hours a day, a few days a week.

I don't expect recovery, if that's what I'm experiencing, to go in a straight line, so I remain cautiously optimistic.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
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My 1st post here. I've been on this protocol for 3 days. I have slept the last 2 nights like a rock for 8 hrs. uninterrupted by waking/urination as is usual. That is worth it's weight in gold to me. I detoxed for 2 months prior to starting this with acs zeolite/acz nanosilver. Also started readisorb 5ml daily about 2 weeks ago and concurrently with this. My current regimen:
1) Folapro- capsule folinic acid(thorne) 1/4 cap daily sublingually
2) 5-mthf- capsule(thorne) 1/4 cap daily sublingually
3) 1 tab 1000 mcg sublingual hydroxycobalamin daily (Intensive Nutrition)
4) 1 tsp(5ml) readisorb liposomal glutathione daily at bedtime
5) 3 x week 1/2 tsp (2.5ml) lipoflow (liposomal/phospholipid glutathione)
6) 2 x week 250mg acetyl-l-carnitine
7) 1 capful (1.6mg) wateroz magnesium daily-Wateroz the best Mg on the market for sensitive folks, bar none
8) gaba 500mg or pharmagaba(thorne) 1-2 caps/day as needed for limbic kindling symptoms
I sometimes supplement with thorne multi, molybdenum, taurine, aqua-e, mg ascorbate 500mg, 1-2 x week. Vitamin C seems to really whack me out as do high sulfur supplements. N-A-C and DMSA are like poison to me.
In the past, I have felt methycobalamin to do me wrong as well.
This regimen seems to agree with me so far, I will keep posting. I am maintaining FT employment and would rank myself as a 7 on the 0-10 scale.
I avoid rx meds like the plague, as they only seem to make me sicker.
PS, I am a medical professional and I appreciate the intelligent dialogue I am finding on this board. Thanks, all.
I actually stumbled onto this post because I'm considering taking some type of zeolite either powder or liquid. If anyone knows the difference between powder and liquid zeolite in terms of both efficacy and potential risk I'd like to hear it, but I also have a more broad question outlined in the paragraph below.

I've been trying to figure out the order to do things for my treatment and I know it probably varies from person to person, but I've been trying methylation and I think I might need to detox first before I go all out in a methylation protocol. I'm dealing with Lyme with possible viruses/viral coinfections and also possible mercury/copper toxicity. Is there any way to figure out which order I should do things other than trial and error? Going low and slow seems like a good idea, but I'd like to hear some theories so I'm not going into this blind. Also, I seem to be a lot more sensitive to supplements now. Even things that I tolerated fine in the past appear to give me problems now.
 

Johnmac

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I've used the latest version of the SMP for a month.

The first week I had quite mild headache and nausea.

Thereafter I didn't notice anything until, after 2 weeks, I noticed I could eat thiol foods again.

I'm chelating mercury, and had stirred up a lot of the stuff - giving me effectively a major reaction to any foods containing thiols/sulphur. E.g. a couple of drops of onion juice would put me in bed for 2 days.

Now I munch cloves of raw garlic through the day - no ill-effects whatever.

This might not seem a big thing to some people, but thiol reactions were eating up a big slice of my life, and now they're gone.
 

Lotus97

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Hi, jeffrez.

I looked up B-Right's composition. It has a total of 400 micrograms of folate, composed of folic acid and methylfolate. However, it doesn't say how much of it is methylfolate.

My guess is that you are not getting enough methylfolate, while you are taking quite a bit of methyl B12 (I presume sublingually). I suspect that you do have a partial block of methionine synthase because of lack of enough methylfolate. That is probably preserving glutathione depletion, which results in a functional B12 deficiency. The latter would account for the buildup of B12 in your blood. The buildup of folate in your blood may be largely folic acid, and you may be one of the people who are not able to convert folic acid to the chemically reduced forms of folate very rapidly, for genetic reasons involving the DHFR enzyme.

Are you taking the methylB12 sublingually? If so, I can't say whether your intrinsic factor is O.K. or not. If the stomach inflammation did indeed knock out your ability to produce enough intrinsic factor, that would have depleted your B12 (i.e. you would have had an absolute B12 deficiency), and that would have put a partial block in your methionine synthase. The folate trap mechanism then would have converted other folates to methylfolate, which would have leaked out of the cells into the blood, and that would have given you a high folate level in the blood. Note that this last effect would have been true only if you did not have serious oxidative stress at that time, so that peroxynitrite did not build up and break down the methylfolate, producing low blood folate.

If you were able to run a methylation pathways panel from Health Diagnostics in New Jersey, it would be possible to understand your current status with regard to these things better. I realize that you are in New York, but I was told by Dr. Audhya that Health Diagnostics can forward samples from New York to their European parent lab and run them there, though they are not certified in New Jersey to run New York samples.

Best regards,

Rich
I thought the only problem with folic acid was that it could block methylfolate. When I took B Right, I definitely felt the effects of the methylfolate even with the folic acid in it and also folic acid from my multi so I didn't think there was a problem with me taking folic acid too. I'm not sure if I'm able to convert folic acid to methylfolate though. Also, I don't understand the "folate trap". Rich is saying that it causes other folates to be converted into methylfolate, but that sounds like a good thing (?)
 

Lotus97

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I don't think my question in my previous post was clear so I'll rephrase it in hopes that someone can give me an answer. If folic acid isn't sufficiently blocking methylfolate for me are there any other reasons why I shouldn't take folic acid?
 

Lotus97

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yes you need both or you take megafolinic for pure folinic acid. (but only starting with 1/8) Nucleotides are very imortant, they are available as a singel supplement or included in the general multi from Yasko but I think the amount of the nucleotides is too low. To check this you should have a look at the uric acid if its low or at the bottom end of the range you probably produce to less nucleotides or have a molybdenum deficiency. Take care not urea its the acid thats important for that.
good look. It was the best thing I did.
I'd like to know more about nucleotides and how to supplement with them. It seems like that's the main reason why Rich recommends Yasko's Neurological Health formula. What are the other options besides the NHF multi? For example, Swanson is having a buy one get one free offer on Imunil® Mixed Nucleotides, but there was another thread where someone was saying there's something special about Yasko's nucleotide formula.
 

Lotus97

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Another possible explanation for the excitotoxicity on methylation treatment

Hi, all.

Last weekend I attended the Orthomolecular Health Medicine Society meeting in San Francisco. Prof. Martin Pall was one of the speakers this year, and I was able to spend some time talking to him. I have known Marty for several years, and even though he and I disagree specifically about what the main mechanism of the pathophysiology of ME/CFS is, I always benefit from talking with him and have learned a lot from him over the past few years.

I think his NO-ONOO hypothesis has had its best reception among the multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) community, and he has certainly done a lot of work on that disorder. One thing he pointed out to me this time, which I found very interesting, is that several classes of toxins that cause problems for people with MCS produce stimulation of the NMDA glutamate receptors in neurons in the brain.

As you may know, excitoxicity results from overexcitation of this type of neuronal receptor. The symptoms of excitotoxicity include anxiety, insomnia and a "wired" feeling. Many PWMEs/PWCs as well as people with autism experience increased excitotoxicity when they start treatment to lift the partial methylation cycle block. In the past, I have suggested that this might be caused by a temporary further depletion of glutathione when this treatment is started, because initially more of the homocysteine will be routed back to form methionine, and less will go down the transsulfuration pathway to make glutathione. Lowering glutathione in the astrocytes in the brain will lower the ATP production by the mitochondria, and that can be expected to allow glutamate to build up in the synapses of the neurons, because less energy will be available to power the membrane pumps that remove it, and the reaction that converts it to glutamine for recycling back to the neurons.

I still think that that is a viable hypothesis, but in view of what Marty told me, I suggest that another mechanism that could give rise to excitotoxicity on this type of treatment is that when the methylation cycle partial block is lifted, the detoxication system begins to operate better, since it depends to a large degree on sulfur-containing substances, and the methylation cycle controls the overall sulfur metabolism. When the detoxication system's function begins to improve, it can be expected that lipid-soluble toxins that have been stored in the body will be mobilized into the blood before they can be excreted into the urine and bile by the kidneys and liver, respectively. Those that are able to cross the blood-brain barrier may then be able to stimulate the NMDA receptors during the time when their levels in the blood are elevated. I think this would be another possible mechanism that could give rise to excitotoxicity on this treatment.

How might the treatment be improved if this mechanism is in fact going on? I guess the thing that occurs to me is that this might be another reason to take binders, such as activated charcoal, which can help to direct toxins into the stools, rather than allowing them to be reabsorbed and recirculated back to the liver and thence to the circulating blood. Some people have reported in the past that they have found this to be helpful. I'd be interested to know if anyone has found this to lessen symptoms of excitotoxicity while on methylation treatment.

Best regards,

Rich
Which toxins are lipid soluble?
 

lch1

A New Day, Every Day!
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This protocol changed my life within 2 months. I am shocked to find out today that Rich passed away last Fall. He communicated to me via email and was smart, caring and devoted. I gave him feedback every so often and he was very encouraging. Rich was on to something and he will be missed. I hope his colleagues carry on his work, but he was surely a unique researcher and had a quality of exploration that few could match. In addition to my fatigue that resulted directly from a bout with walking pneumonia, I discovered I have a mutation of the C677T gene and it was merely luck that I happened along this protocol as it directly addresses that issue. I hope everyone has the luck that I experienced. I'm not 100% better, but most of the way. Best health to all. Farewell to Rich Van Konynenburg, a true pioneer.
 

Johnmac

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I'll second that. Rich's protocol has had big effects on my life.

John

This protocol changed my life within 2 months. I am shocked to find out today that Rich passed away last Fall. He communicated to me via email and was smart, caring and devoted. I gave him feedback every so often and he was very encouraging. Rich was on to something and he will be missed. I hope his colleagues carry on his work, but he was surely a unique researcher and had a quality of exploration that few could match. In addition to my fatigue that resulted directly from a bout with walking pneumonia, I discovered I have a mutation of the C677T gene and it was merely luck that I happened along this protocol as it directly addresses that issue. I hope everyone has the luck that I experienced. I'm not 100% better, but most of the way. Best health to all. Farewell to Rich Van Konynenburg, a true pioneer.
 
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I had been doing ok whilst taking a Thorne Basic B Complex and 1/2 a Jarrow 1000mcg sublingual B12 lozenge. I had been doing this protocol for around a month and had experienced significantly more energy, was sleeping better and my PEM was greatly reduced.
However, keen to try Hydroxy B12 rather than methyl, I substituted half a hydroxy B12 sublingual (again of 1000mcg strength) and continued the same regime with the addition of 1/4 of a Solgar methylfolate tablet. I noticed even more energy and less inflammation but otherwise the same. After a few days on this regime my appetite skyrocketed, I had an insatiable hunger and was piling on weight. I also started to experience regular palpitations and depression. I have since gone back to the methyl B12 rather than hydroxy (only a couple of days now) but still feel rubbish.
I thought hydroxy was less powerful than methylcobalamin, so why did hydroxy bring a slew of worsening symptoms?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Hi All. I have been on this protocol for around 6 weeks now, taking metafolin, folinic acid and methyl b-12. I haven't noticed too many changes to how I feel but will persist. Two questions I had, which I couldn't find easy answers to in this thread to date:

- Apart from a mulit-vitamin and lecithin, are there any other supplements that may be considered as very important to take in addition to the three that I am currently on?
- I am still a relative beginner to methylation, and I don't fully understand the difference between L-methylfolate and 5-MTHF. Would there be a reason why I should consider taking both of these supplements, or is it a case of either or?

Unfortunately I don't have any genetic testing to go on, mainly because it is so expensive when based in the UK as I am, so I figured it would be more beneficial to get on the protocol and see what happens. Thanks very much for any help you can provide.
 

Valentijn

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Hi All. I have been on this protocol for around 6 weeks now, taking metafolin, folinic acid and methyl b-12. I haven't noticed too many changes to how I feel but will persist.
MethylB12 can cause potassium issues. I believe Richvank's protocol advocates for use of hydroxyB12 instead.