Transdermal B12 oils

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When I first started using the oils, I could feel my symptoms start to return in as little as 4 hours. I don't know how much half-life degradation it took to get to that point, but I'd bet it's basically gone within a day. @Johnmac's "30-60 mins half-life after very gradual delivery" fits with that.
@garyfritz Are the absorption steps which Johnmac describes all part of the absorption? When you apply oil, the b12 has to go through those steps before it gets to the bloodstream? In other words, theoretically it can't work in 30-60 minutes.

On the other hand, my experience is like yours and I would notice something within 30 to 60 minutes. In my case this went on to give peak benefit about 4 hours later (rather than the depletion you mention at this point).

Do you still take 2 or 3 doses a day or have you settled into a less intensive regime? I found 3 doses a day started to give me overload and had to cut right back.
 
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I can't edit it for some reason but where I wrote:
"Are the absorption steps which Johnmac describes all part of the absorption?"

I meant:
"Aren't the absorption steps which Johnmac describes all part of the absorption?"
.
 
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garyfritz

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I'm sure Johnmac's report from Greg is accurate. The oil definitely has a longer "onset" time than sublingual, but it also lasts a lot longer -- due to the gradual absorption through the skin &etc.

After (desperately) needing 3 / day squirts of oil for over 2 years, I haven't used a drop of B12 oil since December. That's when I got my last amalgam filling out. Apparently my symptoms were caused by mercury toxicity. I'm now working through the Cutler protocol to remove mercury from my organs & brain. Haven't seen any real results yet -- the big benefit came from getting the fillings out -- but I'm hoping to see more improvements as I ramp up my dosage over time.
 
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After (desperately) needing 3 / day squirts of oil for over 2 years, I haven't used a drop of B12 oil since December. That's when I got my last amalgam filling out. Apparently my symptoms were caused by mercury toxicity.
@garyfritz That mercury amalgam connection sounds interesting.

It seems like B12 oil improved the amalgam symptoms in your case but doesn't adding B12 usually make amalgam symptoms worse?
 

Kathevans

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I have been dealing with multiple deficiencies, as well as amalgam issues and my use of the B-12 Oils had increased to about 4 squirts, two of the simple Methyl and two of the Ado/Methyl combo. I've been cleared of amalgam for exactly three months and my current use has dropped to a squirt of each daily (the simple Methyl is less activating if I need something late in the day or at night...) (I find I can 'feel' the oils entering my system very fast, that is, within 15-20 minutes, actually; and I find they seem to last about 6 hours for me, though this may be shifting)

However, I've also been following Fred's protocol (as well as Greg's advice) and came finally--and very significantly--to Boron, which I had titrated up on over the past couple of months. According the Greg, it takes a month or possibly more for cells that haven't been functioning with a particular supplement to die off and new ones to begin to utilize it (or something like this!) and I have found this to be true on multiple occasions. It was only recently when a NutrEval Test showed that I STILL was deficient in B2--and therefore still missing something it needed to get it going and thus wasn't recycling B-12 or Folate--that Greg recommended taking a multi that had some things that many people don't get around to (boron, vanadium, chromium). His recommendation was the Life Extension One per Day that had these things in it. In any case, because it also had alpha-lipoic-acid and folks who still have amalgam in their mouths should stay away from it until they are free and clear, I got what was still missing in a separate supplement, ie the boron, and began to titrate it.

Interestingly, as Fred describes in his REFEEDING thread, I had all the symptoms of refeeding with Boron--ibs, heart irregularities, higher potassium need, excruciating insomnia--and am still, even after two months, refeeding Boron. I have only just reached the 3mg that the NOW tablet contains (and the Life Extension multi) and I will say that Boron has changed my life. My host of symptoms, while still there, respond better, my arthritic, painful hands bend easily for at least portions of the day, I am sleeping more deeply most nights, my need for B-12 had dropped, as has my Folate dose (from about 15mg/day to about 5-6). All in all, it's amazing. And most of all, I have begun on some days to feel 'normal'. Not better, but headed in that direction. This after being ill for about 25 years.

So, I'll have to post this elsewhere, I think, or write a blog. I have been working on methylation issues for the past 3 years--it has been my life, and not happily so, I have to admit. But I have been faithful to it and, as much as I didn't want to be, patient...

That said, this forum lead me down the path that brought me to here and I am beyond grateful. What I have learned is that it's all relevant! Right down to those microminerals. Another shoe could drop, of course. I'm by no means complacent... In fact, I'm working assiduously on my gut now (l-glutamine, probiotics, digestive enzymes, etc).

With a nod of ardent appreciation to @Athene* and @Johnmac and @garyfritz and @caledonia and @ahmo and @stridor and @Gondwanaland and @Eastman and many, many others.

Oh, and above all, to @Freddd and Dr. Gregory Russell-Jones.
 

garyfritz

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That is awesome Kath!! Congratulations.

Interesting that your B12 needs were cut in half after you got the amalgams out. I'll bet Greg pooh-poohed any idea that there was any connection. My B12 needs went basically to zero as soon as the last amalgams came out -- I haven't used a drop of oil in 8 months, starting a few days after the last removal -- but he refused to believe the amalgams could cause a problem.

Good job staying away from the LE multi. I tried the Two per Day multi just before learning about Cutler chelation, and a bunch of my symptoms flared worse than they'd been for years. B12 didn't help. When I learned ALA was a no-no and stopped taking the multi, the symptoms vanished within 24-48 hours.
 

Kathevans

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Thanks, @garyfritz . The boron balance is still a challenge, so I'll have to see where it goes. Continued NutrEval Tests, as well as mineral tests may be the only way forward in determining need. I'm trying to figure out where to go with the chelation. Did you start with low dose ALA, or with DMSA?
 

garyfritz

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I started with DMSA for 3 months, then mostly went to ALA & DPMS. I need to do more DMSA rounds, since I have high lead.
 

garyfritz

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Vaccinations (how old is he? flu shots still have mercury), seafood (is he a big tuna fan?), living near a coal-fired power plant, exposures to broken thermometers or fluorescent bulbs... there are many potential exposure routes. And another possibility is... you. Fetuses can get exposed in utero if the mother has high levels.

If you're sure he has no amalgam in his mouth, you could try giving him a dose of ALA and see if he reacts. Response to the chelator is supposed to be a sure-fire indicator.
 

CCC

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He's 18. No flu shots. Just most of the normal vaccinations, and late. He hates fish, always has (he very occasionally has some tuna). I thought about in utero, but it's unlikely as the main potential culprit would be a large filling I had after he was born. He also got to 7 before any signs at all, with no developmental delay/cognitive issues/fatigue etc.It leaves us with 1 broken light bulb at home and 1 thermometer at school on the other side of a large lab.

At 7, he had a triple insult of chicken pox, a whooping cough vaccination, and a Dientamoeba fragilis infection within a 6-month period And somewhere there he picked up Bartonella (a Lyme co-infection).

We've discussed the ALA option. Like you, he didn't do well on the LE multi. On one hand, he needs 2 of the core 4 (Vit C and Zn), but on the other hand ... those high AdoB12 doses!

What would you suggest a good dose would be (mg/kg)? And would it be better to try DMSA as a more general metal chelator (aluminium and lead come to mind)?
 

garyfritz

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The reaction to the LE multi is very suspicious, but it's possible he was reacting to something else. Have you done a hair-metal test? That's the standard test in ACC-land, and it would also tell you if lead is an issue.

Not sure of the right "test" dosage. I could ask on the ACC list if you want, but they're certain to recommend a hair test first.
 

CCC

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We're just thinking about what to do next. The boy is sick of tests, understandably. And I'm not sure where to get a reliable hair metal test in Australia.

It's one reason we're thinking of just doing a test round of DMSA and seeing what happens.

The reaction to the LE multi is very suspicious, but it's possible he was reacting to something else. Have you done a hair-metal test? That's the standard test in ACC-land, and it would also tell you if lead is an issue.

Not sure of the right "test" dosage. I could ask on the ACC list if you want, but they're certain to recommend a hair test first.
 

garyfritz

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sb4

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I am thinking of trying B12 oils to experiment with peroxynitrite small fiber neuropathy angle and also mercury however this thread is massive. I am starting to read through it but to save me time could someone tell me the best places to be the oils from? I'm in the UK.
 

Kathevans

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@gettinbetter Why not have a NutrEval Test and see how you're functioning? The Glutaric Acid marker let's you know if B2 is functioning. Mine has been consistently low, even with iodine, selenium and molybdenum--though I was also very deficient in each of them for a while. It's through studying the test and examining the pathways that seem to be non-functioning that I came to the conclusion that there are also toxic elements getting in the way of my functioning--namely mercury and lead.

I've begun the chelation process via the Andy Cutler Protocol and we'll see what happens in my next NutrEval test...