Transdermal B12 oils

garyfritz

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Out of curiosity, has anyone here taken the oils without the cofactors Greg recommends (B2, selenium etc)?
Yes. I took large doses for 3+ years without any specific B12 cofactors. I found they didn't make any difference FOR ME.

It's not surprising that Greg's recommendations didn't work, since my situation didn't fit Greg's model. After several years of research and experimentation I decided my problem was very likely not CFS/ME, not MTHFR, not Greg's theories. I decided (based on about a dozen clues) that it was mercury poisoning. I started taking the Cutler-recommended "Core Four" (C, E, Mg, Zn) and my massive B12 requirement dropped by half, literally overnight. I proceeded with dental revision and got all my amalgam fillings removed. The last one came out on 12/7/17, and about a week later I took my LAST dose of B12 oil. I haven't needed it for 14+ months now.

Greg never believed me. He has his mental model of how B12 metabolism works (which he understands extremely well) but he refuses to consider there might be other unrelated things that could mess up B12 metabolism. He never accepted that anyone could get mercury-toxic from amalgam fillings, and ridiculed/ignored the studies I presented that didn't agree with his worldview. When I updated him with the good results of the amalgam removals, he responded something like "still flogging the same tired mercury theories I see." He said the Core Four and amalgam removal did "bupkiss" for me, and I got better because 3 years of massive B12 supplementation had suddenly filled up my supplies to the level I needed. (Which he originally told me might take a month.) He didn't explain why 3 years of trying all of his recommendations didn't work, but the problem went away within days of removing the last mercury from my mouth. I gave up on trying to convince him.

If you have the problems Greg's trying to fix, then his recommendations might help you. If you have the problems Freddd is trying to fix, then his recommendations might help you. But if you have something else -- like I did -- then neither one is likely to solve your problem. Figure out your cause so you know what solutions might work for you.

(And good luck with your chelation process, Kathleen!!)
 

garyfritz

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Yeah my problems were never as severe as those faced by a lot of people here -- you fr'instance!! But they still sucked majorly, and it was VERY good to get a handle on it. Chelation itself has been a bit of a disappointment. I think it's pretty obvious my problem really WAS mercury, based on many clues and data points, but I haven't seen much improvement since the fillings came out. But the problems I still have are mostly things I've had most of my life and I'm pretty used to living with them. They were just "likely mercury symptoms" (ADD, procrastination, focus issues, etc etc) and I was hoping Cutler might magically make them go away too. :)
 

outdamnspot

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Yes. I took large doses for 3+ years without any specific B12 cofactors. I found they didn't make any difference FOR ME.

It's not surprising that Greg's recommendations didn't work, since my situation didn't fit Greg's model. After several years of research and experimentation I decided my problem was very likely not CFS/ME, not MTHFR, not Greg's theories. I decided (based on about a dozen clues) that it was mercury poisoning. I started taking the Cutler-recommended "Core Four" (C, E, Mg, Zn) and my massive B12 requirement dropped by half, literally overnight. I proceeded with dental revision and got all my amalgam fillings removed. The last one came out on 12/7/17, and about a week later I took my LAST dose of B12 oil. I haven't needed it for 14+ months now.

Greg never believed me. He has his mental model of how B12 metabolism works (which he understands extremely well) but he refuses to consider there might be other unrelated things that could mess up B12 metabolism. He never accepted that anyone could get mercury-toxic from amalgam fillings, and ridiculed/ignored the studies I presented that didn't agree with his worldview. When I updated him with the good results of the amalgam removals, he responded something like "still flogging the same tired mercury theories I see." He said the Core Four and amalgam removal did "bupkiss" for me, and I got better because 3 years of massive B12 supplementation had suddenly filled up my supplies to the level I needed. (Which he originally told me might take a month.) He didn't explain why 3 years of trying all of his recommendations didn't work, but the problem went away within days of removing the last mercury from my mouth. I gave up on trying to convince him.

If you have the problems Greg's trying to fix, then his recommendations might help you. If you have the problems Freddd is trying to fix, then his recommendations might help you. But if you have something else -- like I did -- then neither one is likely to solve your problem. Figure out your cause so you know what solutions might work for you.

(And good luck with your chelation process, Kathleen!!)
Thanks for your response. Greg's model always struck me as overly reductionist .. I think he claimed all CFS is really just a B12 issue? Which really wouldn't jive with how disablingly unwell some people (including me) are. The reason I asked about cofactors is because I tried to follow his advice, but didn't respond favorably to B2, so gave up on even trying the B12 I purchased. I was going based off of the fact that Jarrow's Methyl-B12 made me crash, but heapsreal suggested it could have been something like one of the fillers, not the B12 itself.

So I've been wondering if there's a chance I could tolerate the oil without requiring anything else Greg suggests. I do still have a full, unopened bottle. It's probably over a year old but has been kept sealed in a cupboard so hopefully is still okay?
 

Kathevans

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@outdamnspot I don't think Greg has ever claimed that CFS only has to do with B12. In fact, at this moment he's a big proponent of getting all those co-factors in line, making sure you're covered. Recently, this has taken the form of a recommendation that you take a simple daily multi to make sure that all those trace minerals are covered.

Greg begins by looking at your genetics, knows where many of the problem snps are, has a look at your NutrEval or OAT test to see how your particular body is functioning.

I, too, have had a big problem with tolerating B2--I am still working on it. And it remains largely non-functional for me. Only after I realized that much of the citric acid cycle which utilizes B2, can also be inhibited by mercury and other toxins, did I begin to suspect that that may be a contributing factor in my illness, and thus my healing.

The path is rarely simple. @garyfritz has been very lucky (Yay, Gary!) that B-12 resolved some of his worst issues until amalgam removal seems to have alleviated perhaps the worst of them. And, Gary, it may be that some of those other issues--the ADD, for example, will still improve over time with continued chelation. They say that mercury hijacks B-12, so i would suspect that perhaps lower dose supplementation as well as further removal of the mercury will continue to shift things. I've had amalgams since I was about 5, had multiple doses of nitrous oxide that wiped out cobalamins (and suffered for it with on and off anxiety disorders as a younger woman), and finally had all the amalgams removed as of last April. My hopes are high. But then, so is my frustration level! The years are flipping by, and I am far from my old self...or a better, more functional self at any rate.

What else can we do but continue to hope and experiment?

Sure, go ahead and try the oil alone. But I don't think it's the way either Greg or Fred would recommend you move forward. Ultimately, Fred experienced severe copper deficiencies after only taking a multi for some years. When snps have an effect on how we metabolize, we may need more of some minerals or other substances, less of others. There's no way of knowing without some sort of functional test. And most tests will have nothing to say about some of the lesser trace minerals, like boron. It's shifted things once again for me.